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Post by philsadler on Dec 2, 2021 10:12:12 GMT
Jon Green has dethroned Ian as the maker of the least fair gamebook in the series!
I'm not sure. I mean you needed a 15 skill to beat Crypt, whereas here you 'only' needed a 13. Both pathetic I'm sure, but one more so than the other?
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 2, 2021 10:57:14 GMT
Jon Green has dethroned Ian as the maker of the least fair gamebook in the series!
I'm not sure. I mean you needed a 15 skill to beat Crypt, whereas here you 'only' needed a 13. Both pathetic I'm sure, but one more so than the other?
But then without the option to surrender to the guards, a Skill 13+ character is likely doomed.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 2, 2021 11:12:09 GMT
Okay, by my count that was 16 attempts. Jon Green has dethroned Ian as the maker of the least fair gamebook in the series! And that was with you bending the rules to increase your Faith score and to fail to beat the guards in 10 rounds. Well, the 10 rounds thing was legit to my mind. I've had the voluntary failure rule from the start, I've just never needed to apply it to combat before (and I wanted to make taking the option fairly punishing, I could have just decided to chill after the fight and wait for the guards to arrive but I wanted it to be as close to actually taking 10 rounds as possible). The faith thing was the same as the weapons in Sky Lord. I didn't like it but it really was the only way to proceed without amassing dozens upon dozens of rerolls. If I'd gone with rerolls instead, I'd probably still be struggling through it. So good call by The Count on that one. I hear that after Curse of the Mummy he eased up on the difficulty quite substantially so I'm looking forward to his Wizard books. They seem to generally be quite highly rated on the forum.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 2, 2021 11:17:03 GMT
Jon Green has dethroned Ian as the maker of the least fair gamebook in the series!
I'm not sure. I mean you needed a 15 skill to beat Crypt, whereas here you 'only' needed a 13. Both pathetic I'm sure, but one more so than the other?
I see where you're coming from but that I think that approach treats skill as the only valuable stat. In Spellbreaker, faith is at least as important as skill and if I wasn't tweaking the rules to allow me to start with 5 instead of 1, I'd probably STILL be stuck on it. Crypt certainly has tougher combat but overall I think Spellbreaker is the harder book.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 2, 2021 16:10:20 GMT
Well, the 10 rounds thing was legit to my mind. I've had the voluntary failure rule from the start, I've just never needed to apply it to combat before (and I wanted to make taking the option fairly punishing, I could have just decided to chill after the fight and wait for the guards to arrive but I wanted it to be as close to actually taking 10 rounds as possible). The faith thing was the same as the weapons in Sky Lord. I didn't like it but it really was the only way to proceed without amassing dozens upon dozens of rerolls. If I'd gone with rerolls instead, I'd probably still be struggling through it. Oh wasn't questioning your methodology, just pointing out that Spellbreaker is even harder than your amount of attempts suggests. Bloodbones is still pretty nasty but a bit less so than his first two Puffin books, probably on a par with Curse. From then on they get a LOT easier.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 2, 2021 17:59:53 GMT
Going by the Champskees Algorithm if you allow voluntary failure with the militiamen (which let's be honest they should have done) Spellbreaker is very hard but not quite as hard as Crypt. But his table assumes maximum amount of gold, which you need to get all the essential items, so I'd estimate it's true difficulty as above Crypt even allowing for voluntary failure.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 2, 2021 19:30:16 GMT
But his table assumes maximum amount of gold, which you need to get all the essential items If you don't start with max gold, you can get enough by playing Eclipse. Unfortunately a) it's a matter of luck to win; and b) it's beyond tedious.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 2, 2021 21:23:24 GMT
Zagor - Braxus - 10/14/4/5 Sometimes you just have a cursed run. The same zombies got me which was fairly merciful given how I'd been rolling all game. Zagor - Braxus - 11/14/4/5 Despite a FOUR skill advantage, the great orcs at the start knocked me from 14 stamina down to 6. This was fairly prophetic as later on a skill 7 Mungus managed to completely destroy me.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 0:44:56 GMT
Zagor - Braxus - 12/14/4/5 When the dice stop trolling you, things get a lot easier. Zagor is dead at long last. This book is WAY too long. It's honestly exhausting. Up next we find out if 5 stamina, 1 luck and an inability to be surprised is worth more than magical plate mail. My money's on no since I didn't see many opportunities Anvar had that Braxus didn't but the reverse was definitely true. But I guess we'll find out!
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 8:25:55 GMT
Zagor - Anvar - 7/19/5/5 The four great orcs are tougher than they look on paper.
Zagor - Anvar - 8/19/5/5 For the first time ever, I passed the luck test and avoided the great orcs! So I got to die to the crown zombies instead. Much better!
Zagor - Anvar - 9/19/5/5 I made it a lot further than I expected, all the way to the animated armours. The extra stamina is more useful than I expected. I decided that I could sell the magical chainmail, since it was useless to me. It says "If you can find a merchant to sell this chain mail to, he will pay you 12 gold pieces for it." I found a merchant, and even though he expressed no interest in buying it (the only thing he seemed interested in buying was his own merchandise back: "If you want sell an item here, the merchant will pay you 1 gold piece less than the selling price listed above." No chain mail is listed in his inventory.). A disinterested merchant is still a merchant so by my reading of the text, I found a merchant to sell it to. I'm open to arguments if anyone interprets it differently.
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Post by nathanh on Dec 3, 2021 9:10:05 GMT
I would sell it for 12gp with no hesitation.
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Post by jmisbest on Dec 3, 2021 11:57:03 GMT
In the 3 weeks, 5 days since you started this thread I've been bored out of my mind and I decided to play Legend of Zagor with Sallazar using A method I call tactical suicide and the intent was to create A Super Human Demi God that could defeat even The Silver Crusade with The Super Strength Power and it worked. Here's how it went. What do you thinK?
Playthroughs 1 to 5
Tactically Suicide VS The Fog Wyvern
That means I start playthrough 6 with Skill 10, Stamina 9, Luck 7, Magic 7 and 5 Gold
Playthroughs 6 to 16
Make sure my Stamina is 4 or lower, flee from Remstars Ghost and he kills me
That means I start playthrough 17 with Skill 10, Stamina 20, Luck 7, Magic 7 and 5 Gold
Playthroughs 17 to 20
Make sure that by the time I get to The Trapped Corridor I have 0 Magic, fall into The Orcs Trap and because I have 0 Magic I can’t escape and get killed
That means I start playthrough 21 with Skill 10, Stamina 20, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 5 Gold
Playthroughs 21 to 26
Before visiting The Sage I spend enough gold to make sure I don’t have enough Gold to buy The Bit of Paper with The Sage’s Prophecy, this means I don’t have The Onyx Staff and get killed by The War Dragon
That means I start playthrough 27 with Skill 10, Stamina 20, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 11 Gold
Playthroughs 27 and 28
Deliberately make sure that by the time I get to The War Dragon my Stamina’s low enough for it to kill me
That means I start playthrough 29 with Skill 10, Stamina 22, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 11 Gold
Playthroughs 30 to 32
Deliberately make sure that by the time I face Gruul my Stamina is 3 or less then flee, this gets me killed
That means I start playthrough 33 with Skill 10, Stamina 25, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 11 Gold
Playthroughs 33 and 34
Ensure that by the time I get to The War Dragons time using The Vortex kills me
That means I start playthrough 35 with Skill 10, Stamina 27, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 11 Gold
Playthrough 36
This time when I get to The War Dragons even though it won’t kill me I use The Vortex in the hope that I’ll fail The Skill Test, the dragon will be awake and I’ll die and it works
That means I start playthrough 37 with Skill 11, Stamina 27, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 11 Gold
Playthroughs 37 and 38
Before visiting The Sage I spend enough gold to make sure I don’t have enough Gold to buy The Bit of Paper with The Sage’s Prophecy, this means I don’t have The Onyx Staff and get killed by The War Dragon
That means I start playthrough 39 with Skill 11, Stamina 27, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthroughs 39 and 40
Decide to try and get killed by Sir Davian, who has Skill 12 and Stamina 26, it works
That means I start playthrough 41 with Skill 13, Stamina 27, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthrough 41
Actually beat Zagor but made sure my Stamina was low enough for the 4 damage I took at paragraph 60 to kill me
That means I start playthrough 42 with Skill 13, Stamina 28, Luck 10, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthroughs 43 and 44
Tried to make sure that when I fought Elranel both my Stamina and my Luck were very low and that failing enough Luck Tests would kill me, it works
That means I start playthrough 45 with Skill 13, Stamina 28, Luck 12, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthrough 45
Meet Remstars Ghost, sacrifice 1 point of Skill in the hope that when I fight The War Dragon that the -1 Skill proves fatal, it doesn't but it woulds me enough that Zagor finish's me
That means I start playthrough 46 with Skill 14, Stamina 28, Luck 12, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthroughs 46 to 48
Beat The Zagor Demon but I made sure that my Stamina was so low that I also fall into The Hellfires
That means I start playthrough 49 with Skill 14, Stamina 31, Luck 12, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthroughs 49 and 50
Ensure that by the time I’ve beat Remstar my Luck’s very low, I pick up the 2nd card, fail The Luck Test and fall to my doom
That means I start playthrough 51 with Skill 14, Stamina 31, Luck 14, Magic 10 and 13 Gold
Playthroughs 51 to 53
Before visiting The Sage I spend enough gold to make sure I don’t have enough Gold to buy The Bit of Paper with The Sage’s Prophecy, this means I don’t have The Onyx Staff, sacrifice 1 bit of Skill to let Remstars Soul find rest and I try to ensure that my Stamina is low enough that between them The Great Mummy, The War Dragon and Zagor kill me, it works
That means I start playthrough 54 with Skill 14, Stamina 31, Luck 14, Magic 10 and 16 Gold
From Playthrough 54 onwards I will make genuine efforts to beat this Book
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 20:49:32 GMT
You are extremely dedicated!
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 3, 2021 20:51:42 GMT
You are extremely dedicated! Or nuts. Pick one.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 21:25:41 GMT
Zagor - Anvar - 10/19/5/5 Wow, this is a rough one. A skill 5 stamina 4 plaguebearer managed to land a hit on me and even though I had a vial of plague antidote from the merchant, there was no option to use it. Just instant death.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 3, 2021 21:47:40 GMT
I thought the only place you could use the (bought) vial of plague antidote was with the plague bearer, and I thought the text specified that if you used it (which amounts to an option) you don't have to throw 2d6 and hope for the best whenever you enter a new room (effectively game, set and match against you). I mean, I'm a stickler for the rules but where in the paragraphs where you bought the vial and where you encountered the plague bearer did it specifically say that? Your dedication to the rules makes nazis look moderate imho. I'm basing this on the directions of the merchant for its use, which aren't at any point contradicted (and if you are being a Grammar Nazi about it, why even buy it?).
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 21:58:33 GMT
There's a plague zombie that is skill 7. If that one hits you, it's the roll a die every reference and 11 or 12 kills you. That DOES allow the use of the antidote.
The skill 5 plague BEARER offers no such mercy. It wins a round and you just die. I unambiguously died, I'm just grumbling that an otherwise good run was ended by such frustrating conditions.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 3, 2021 22:05:10 GMT
There's a plague zombie that is skill 7. If that one hits you, it's the roll a die every reference and 11 or 12 kills you. That DOES allow the use of the antidote. The skill 5 plague BEARER offers no such mercy. It wins a round and you just die. I unambiguously died, I'm just grumbling that an otherwise good run was ended by such frustrating conditions. Ah, sorry I went off a bit!
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 22:07:31 GMT
All good.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 3, 2021 23:30:13 GMT
Zagor - Anvar - 11/19/5/5 I got a shiny new axe. +1 to attack strength. Yay! Very next fight, the spectre hit you, lose 1 initial skill. Easy come, easy go as they say. That was the only time the game tried to mess with me at least and I eventually won.
I wasn't expecting Anvar to stand much of a chance compared to Braxus but turning the chainmail into 48 stamina (12 rations) combined with being able to go up to 19 instead of 14 stamina seems to be about as effective as the +2 attack strength from the plate mail. Technically more so since this only took 5 attempts. Next we address the series' dwarf shortage by taking Stubble for a spin.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 4:50:33 GMT
Zagor - Stubble - 6/14/6/10 Hands up if you thought I'd win with 6 skill. I admire your misplaced optimism! I died in the first fight I got into (a corpse lizard). Zagor - Stubble - 7/14/6/10 The great orcs at the start are a familiar place to lose unskilled adventurers. Zagor - Stubble - 8/14/6/10 An annoying place to die. I was 1 stamina away from killing a pair of great orcs (not the ones at the start, the ones with the invisibility potion). Had I killed them, I would have gotten a full stamina heal but sadly not to be. It's kind of novel having a luck stat that is somewhat usable. I'd still prefer the extra skill but it's nice not being almost guaranteed to fail every roll.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 8:42:48 GMT
Zagor - Stubble - 9/14/6/10 Well, the great orcs at the start claim another victim!
Zagor - Stubble - 10/14/6/10 I honestly didn't expect to win but despite running perilously low on provisions I dragged myself across the finish line in one piece.
Okay, shaving complete. No more Stubble. Now the wizard who has 5 skill and needs to win an attack round to cast combat magic. This one is probably going to suck.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 10:14:05 GMT
Zagor - Sallazar - 5/9/4/5 Look at those stats! I'm almost guaranteed to win! A corpse lizard disapproved of my existence and rectified the situation. Zagor - Sallazar - 6/9/4/5 At least having 9 stamina means the corpse lizard kills me quickly so I can move on to the next attempt. Zagor - Sallazar - 7/9/4/5 Good news! I finally passed the spot check so I got killed by a dark elf wizard instead of a corpse lizard. Yay for variety! Zagor - Sallazar - 8/9/4/5 I finally made it beyond the first room. I got killed by the stone guardian which was further than I expected to get.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 11:50:44 GMT
Zagor - Sallazar - 9/9/4/5 And back to dying in the first room again.
Zagor - Sallazar - 10/9/4/5 And the stone guardian got me again.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 22:46:26 GMT
Zagor - Sallazar - 11/9/4/5 11 skill seems to be what you need to comfortably beat this one. One more dead Zagor to add to the pile!
Sal's combat spells seem to be very "win more" in that if you can reliably win attack rounds, you don't need magic to win but they will let you win faster which is always good in a book this gargantuan. I must say, I'll be glad to read a different book after this. 4 playthroughs were fine at the start of the series but 4 Legend of Zagors definitely overstays its welcome. Up next is one I know nothing about. I'm not sure I've ever even read it to be honest.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 4, 2021 23:07:13 GMT
Zagor - Sallazar - 11/9/4/5 11 skill seems to be what you need to comfortably beat this one. One more dead Zagor to add to the pile! Sal's combat spells seem to be very "win more" in that if you can reliably win attack rounds, you don't need magic to win but they will let you win faster which is always good in a book this gargantuan. I must say, I'll be glad to read a different book after this. 4 playthroughs were fine at the start of the series but 4 Legend of Zagors definitely overstays its welcome. Up next is one I know nothing about. I'm not sure I've ever even read it to be honest. Yes, you must feel like you've eaten 4 large course meals straight! I'm surprised you were able to beat LOZ with Sal with a Skill 11, min stamina and luck Avatar. Some of the enemies have such high stamina and competitive skill I would think that with a stamina of just 9 your odds were around 50 50 (that is, you can't reliably win attack rounds and you do need magic to win). Either way Sallazar is at a gross disadavantage. Did you find any of the characters more or less fun to play? My favourites are Anvar and Stubble - Braxus is too easy and feels more like a Mary Sue than a PC, and Sallazar is hard as hell (unless you have a really good Avatar, which you're unlikely to roll without cheating).
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 4, 2021 23:18:39 GMT
Most enemies are around skill 8 to 10 and you have the thief and invisibility potion to deal with the 10s, so I was comfortably a few skill points higher than my opponents. Add in the attack strength/skill bonuses from the wand and there's really not that many sticking points. The spells were really good for the fights with special rules. You do not want to risk losing a skill to the spectre for instance but overall it wasn't too bad once you got to skill 11. Favourite character is lame old Braxus. I like skill/attack strength bonuses and he gets +3 just from his armour and sword. In terms of fun, Sallazar because he has more options but as has been noted, he's the weakest choice.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 5, 2021 0:43:34 GMT
I must say, I'll be glad to read a different book after this. 4 playthroughs were fine at the start of the series but 4 Legend of Zagors definitely overstays its welcome. Up next is one I know nothing about. I'm not sure I've ever even read it to be honest. Are you actually reading the book each time or just doing the dice rolls etc?
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 5, 2021 0:56:17 GMT
I must say, I'll be glad to read a different book after this. 4 playthroughs were fine at the start of the series but 4 Legend of Zagors definitely overstays its welcome. Up next is one I know nothing about. I'm not sure I've ever even read it to be honest. Are you actually reading the book each time or just doing the dice rolls etc? I'm kind of doing visual novel rules, I can skip stuff I've already read on previous playthroughs. Though I do refer back to the book if I want the exact wording on something.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 5, 2021 4:50:27 GMT
Deathmoor - 7/14/7 As I left the pub, a thug and a yob double teamed me.
Deathmoor - 8/14/7 A fail right out of the gate. A failed luck roll costs me an essential item.
Deathmoor - 8/14/8 Things were going well until the Baron stabbed me twice with his poisoned blade.
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