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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 14, 2021 12:35:41 GMT
This has been touched on before but I have not really had much of a think about it. Is it just me, or are things in general getting more babyish?  I cannot recall a time in the past when a Warhammer 40K book would have a cover like that (we see the same thing with Crystal of Storms in FF). I have no idea what is on the inside, but the cover doesn't bode well. And consider the earlier Scholastic illustrations! What are the reasons for this trend? Is it a trend? If so are we over the worst of it yet? |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 14, 2021 13:49:15 GMT
With any trend, it tends to all be about money in the end. Companies will try to reach out to other markets which they don't generally appeal to and hope they don't lose more from their old demographic than they gain from the new. If takings go down, they'll revert, if they go up, they'll try to push things further.
With Crystal of Storms, Scholastic was risking losing fans from its traditional demographic of young boys by trying to tap into the young girl market (us die-hard fans aren't a factor - we may moan but we'll still buy whatever is pumped out). Here, it looks like Warhammer is risking the teenage boy and young male market to appeal to younger boys and girls.
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Post by philsadler on Nov 14, 2021 13:52:31 GMT
I think in general it's to do with the filth that run the world treating us like children.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 14, 2021 14:36:38 GMT
With any trend, it tends to all be about money in the end. Companies will try to reach out to other markets which they don't generally appeal to and hope they don't lose more from their old demographic than they gain from the new. If takings go down, they'll revert, if they go up, they'll try to push things further. With Crystal of Storms, Scholastic was risking losing fans from its traditional demographic of young boys by trying to tap into the young girl market (us die-hard fans aren't a factor - we may moan but we'll still buy whatever is pumped out). Here, it looks like Warhammer is risking the teenage boy and young male market to appeal to younger boys and girls. Yeah, that must be part of it. Taking a punt on attracting new customers whilst hoping to retain the old. Check this out, this is an advert for a cafe in Los Angeles and can be seen at the GW site. Who is the target? Teenagers? 9-12 year olds?.. www.warhammer-community.com/en-us/2021/02/01/introducing-the-warhammer-store-cafe-los-angeles-2/:  On the left there is a representation of a genetically-engineered human killing machine taken from his mum and dad at an early age and brainwashed into becoming a religious fanatic. On the right, that must be.. like... his gf or something? Maybe they're relaxing after a bit of heretic-burning? Thirsty work brothers and sisters! I'm not trying to be all po-faced and irritable here. I know that humour was used in the old days of GW to sell stuff. This seems different though and I'm noticing it elsewhere. I'm not surprised this is connected to somewhere in L.A. I'm getting a Dead Kennedy's 'California Uber Alles' feel... |
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 14, 2021 14:43:28 GMT
I think in general it's to do with the filth that run the world treating us like children. 'Leaders' who lack the quality of leadership, who merely want compliance, who cannot be trusted to act in our interests, who are getting found out. A babyish population is one easier to control. That sort of thing? We hear the phrase 'dumbing down' and that people [children and adults] have short attention spans. Is this true, and if so is this part of what's going on in 'popular culture'? |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,457
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 14, 2021 16:37:45 GMT
And of course, cutesy-geek stuff is very popular these days - think of Funko Pops.
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 14, 2021 19:55:13 GMT
Bloodbeasthandler, that girl in your second picture is a Stormcast Eternal from Fantasy, GW created these when they killed WHFB and the Old World in favour of Age of Sigmar.
As for "What are the reasons for the trend?", with no evidence whatsoever, I put at least some of the blame on the Star Wars Clone Wars Animated Series. That was aimed at adults (or young adults) but as far as I know proved remarkably popular among children, say from 10 upwards. As kieran says, companies will try to reach out to new demographics, but I don't think they wouldn't be doing it that strongly hadn't there been an ice breaker to show that there was substantial money to be made.
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Post by The Count on Nov 14, 2021 21:42:18 GMT
And the very kids being marketed towards with this stuff are the very same ones that were streaming the WAP video and recreating the alleged dancing on tik tok...
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 15, 2021 21:13:15 GMT
Bloodbeasthandler, that girl in your second picture is a Stormcast Eternal from Fantasy, GW created these when they killed WHFB and the Old World in favour of Age of Sigmar. Ah, no wonder I didn't recognise her! When it comes to GW fantasy, the year for me is permanently 1989 at the latest. That means beastmen lurking in the woods of the Empire, The Enemy Within Campaign, Norse invaders of the New World fighting drugged-up Amazons. GW can try to 'kill' their creations as much as they want, but it's not dead just cos they say so. As for "What are the reasons for the trend?", with no evidence whatsoever, I put at least some of the blame on the Star Wars Clone Wars Animated Series. That was aimed at adults (or young adults) but as far as I know proved remarkably popular among children, say from 10 upwards.
My eldest son backs you up on what you say here. And looking at it, yeah, I can see the aesthetic. That book cover looks 'parent-friendly' too. Parent-friendly in a way that the illustrations and written content of the sourcebook 'Slaves to Darkness' (1988) was certainly not. Having let their younglings get into WH40K with cutesie book covers like this, I wonder what the parents' reaction will be when their offspring progress further into 'The Hobby'(TM) and start telling them about 'the butcher's nails' being banged into World Eater marines' heads. Or the Dark Eldar and Slaaneshi cultists who make the cenobites out of Hellraiser look like The Girl Guides. Thinking about this highly hypothetical situation is the only comfort I can take from that cover. And the very kids being marketed towards with this stuff are the very same ones that were streaming the WAP video and recreating the alleged dancing on tik tok... WAP. I thought that was something to do with old mobile phones. Wireless Application Protocol. It isn't though, is it? Thanks to you I looked it up. No amount of scrubbing at my eyes with wire wool covered in Dettol and stabbing my eardrums with knitting needles can undo what I just saw and heard. Thanks Count.... |
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 21, 2021 20:00:26 GMT
I'm a bit later to the party, starting with 6ed and stopping when Age of Sigmar hit. A couple months ago I did have a very nice game of 7ed vs my cousin, so it's not dead just cos they say so. Hear, hear! |
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Post by nathanh on Nov 21, 2021 23:50:25 GMT
There seems to be a general movement in preferred art style in games to something that feels childish, but probably isn't really, it's just that it's not to my taste. Other good examples are Diablo 3 vs Diablo 2, and the new Heroquest box art vs the old (this is particularly obvious since the new art is basically a reimagining of the old in the modern style).
I think the art for the cafe is fine though; it generates the right atmosphere for a cafe. I wouldn't want to go for a drink at somewhere with a true 40k atmosphere.
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Post by The Count on Nov 23, 2021 22:20:06 GMT
And the very kids being marketed towards with this stuff are the very same ones that were streaming the WAP video and recreating the alleged dancing on tik tok... WAP. I thought that was something to do with old mobile phones. Wireless Application Protocol. It isn't though, is it? Thanks to you I looked it up. No amount of scrubbing at my eyes with wire wool covered in Dettol and stabbing my eardrums with knitting needles can undo what I just saw and heard. Thanks Count.... It is only fair that everyone sees a grotesque parody of a woman celebrating female sexuality via the medium of the misogynistic pornesque imagery containing grotesque parodies of women stylings that the crapping protests. |
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aggsol
Wanderer
Bored...
Posts: 93
Favourite Gamebook Series: Lone Wolf
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Post by aggsol on Nov 24, 2021 11:29:25 GMT
They just stressed that WH40K is a satire, that the Imperium is a really bad place and the glorification of Space Marines should be taken with a grain of salt. You cannot at the same time cater to Moms und Kids. This is just wrong.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 6, 2022 10:18:01 GMT
In my increasingly eccentric life I have recently found myself reading though old letters (and even classified ads) sections of White Dwarfs from literally decades ago. FF sometimes gets mentioned in them. Check this letter out from a George S in WD 69 [dated September 1985]. (I have replaced surnames with an initial letter)
Dear White Dwarf,
I would like to reply to Darren H's letter, which was printed in White Dwarf 66. Older gamers, like myself, are fully aware that children, like Mr. H, do play role-playing games. We wish you wouldn't. It's the existence of gamers like you which allows games manufacturers to flood the market with childish games at rip-off prices. Role-playing games have been fighting against the image of triviality for years, and it is precisely material such as Fighting Fantasy gamebooks which encourage this image. Let us not have such material creeping into the ancient and highly respectable White Dwarf, in the form of scenarios like Dark Usurper and Castle of Lost Souls.
[ends with plea to keep the book reviews section of WD]
Yours,
George S, Stockport.
The writer had correctly identified FF as an entry-point into RPGs for younger people, but is of the opinion that this is a bad thing because it distorts the whole RPG hobby as he sees it. It got me thinking if I was heading down the same route of thinking with some of the things I have said, like my being against the trend towards appealing to much younger children and the more simplistic (babyish?) art.
I have found myself not guilty of this, though, because I've decided that there's a difference between FF and RPGs as a whole. But I'm finding it hard to put into words why.
RPGs and everything associated with them [the vast numbers of games themselves, the miniatures, the novels etc] are a sort of gigantic umbrella under which the brands/franchises [like FF] can gather... and there is plenty of room. Room for different companies, franchises, themes and customers. (I think that's the difference).
FF started off aiming at a certain target and if anything started getting more complicated and in-depth. And the recent trend has been to reverse that and make the books appeal to an age group even younger than the one from the 80's.
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Post by petch on Mar 6, 2022 11:43:22 GMT
I don't think there is a need to justify a difference mate. Perhaps this is just me being defensive as I'm a big admirer of the series, but all I'm reading from that letter is 'My way of enjoying my hobby is more legitimate than yours', which, as well as being unbearably snobbish, is also a juvenile reaction to perceived childishness. You were making a different point entirely.
Moreover, what's wrong with enjoying quality material even if it is aimed at children? Dickens wrote for children. Toy Story is more beautiful and profound than the vast majority of films Hollywood pumps out for grownups. I could fill a page with loads of other examples just off of the top of my head. And, as I've seen a few posters recount on this board already, the more family-accessible FFs are giving middle-aged, nostalgic oldies like us (apologies for the generalisation to anyone younger reading this!) the chance to enjoy them again with their own children, which is a lovely thing.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 6, 2022 11:52:44 GMT
I don't think there is a need to justify a difference mate. Perhaps this is just me being defensive as I'm a big admirer of the series, but all I'm reading from that letter is 'My way of enjoying my hobby is more legitimate than yours', which, as well as being unbearably snobbish, is also a juvenile reaction to perceived childishness. You were making a different point entirely. Moreover, what's wrong with enjoying quality material even if it is aimed at children? Dickens wrote for children. Toy Story is more beautiful and profound than the vast majority of films Hollywood pumps out for grownups. I could fill a page with loads of other examples just off of the top of my head. And, as I've seen a few posters do on this board already, the more family-accessible material is giving middle-aged, nostalgic oldies like us (apologies for the generalisation to anyone younger reading this!) the chance to enjoy it again with their own children, which is a lovely thing. Yeah, I do try to catch myself if I find myself going down the lines of 'there is no place in this thing for [x]' and examine why that is so. And things that can be enjoyed at any age (aimed at children or not) plus being something that can be shared between generations [parents and children] are as you say a lovely thing |
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