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Post by petch on Jan 3, 2022 23:14:06 GMT
The next poll is to establish our favourite book from the 'other' Steve Jackson, who is either - and I always get this confused - an American game designer, or a freakish simulacrum of the original Steve Jackson created using rudimentary and highly illegal cloning technology for the sole purpose of writing gamebooks and was kept chained like an animal to a typewriter in Jackson's cellar in an effort from Jackson and Livingstone to avoid having to pay commission to other authors for creating entries to the series, an experiment that later had to be abandoned after a Livingstone-clone penned a sequel to Crypt of the Sorcerer that was so hard it actually shattered known probability theory and threatened to disrupt the very laws of physics themselves and so had to be contained in a lead-lined underground chamber lest dire consequences be unleashed of boiling seas, catastrophic mass extinction events and the end of life as we know it.
I've just checked, he was the first thing I said. I should have looked that up before typing all that other guff, really.
Significantly less voting options on offer compared to the first two polls here, a trend that will continue until we get to Keith Martin.
Poll closes at 10pm Thurs 6th.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jan 3, 2022 23:16:03 GMT
Demons of the Deep for me - it's just so charming.
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sylas
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"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 3, 2022 23:47:30 GMT
i voted Demons of the Deep but all 3 are enjoyable in their own ways. The biggest difference that sets them apart is that Demons has a decent story as well. The other two kind of suffer in that regard.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 4, 2022 0:14:06 GMT
Demons Of The Deep has a richer, more complicated, more colourful world besides Scorpion Swamp, although Swamp is definitely charming. Haven't played Robot Commando.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jan 4, 2022 0:21:53 GMT
One thing Ive noticed about US Steve Jackson's output is that these all seem WAY easier than most FF fare.
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Post by terrysalt on Jan 4, 2022 1:53:56 GMT
Demons never really did it for me but the other two are excellent. In the end, the robots in RC made the gameplay just that extra bit more interesting so it got my vote.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 4, 2022 8:58:02 GMT
... In the end, the robots in RC made the gameplay just that extra bit more interesting so it got my vote. That's it. There's such a variation in robots from lighter flying types to heavier walking ones, even 'transformers' and machines with special abilities. And they are not presented always as enemies but as ones you can pilot yourself.
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Post by vastariner on Jan 4, 2022 10:11:35 GMT
Scorpion Swamp, because it has good replayability value. DotD is good fun, and ran it close, but as I've expatiated before, has a major design flaw.
Robot Commando I found sterile, which is a problem with the entire scenario - your entire country is asleep so interactions are limited. But good replayability. Noteworthy that all of SJUS's books have multiple winning conditions, in DotD's case more of a drawing condition sometimes.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jan 4, 2022 15:09:32 GMT
Its close among these however Robot Commando got my vote as well, but does anyone else feel there should have been more robot combat than there actually was? Oh and one of those illustrations blatantly rips off Starscream from the Transformers!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 4, 2022 15:24:36 GMT
Its close among these however Robot Commando got my vote as well, but does anyone else feel there should have been more robot combat than there actually was? Maybe... Next time I read it I'll think about that, but off-hand I'd say no, that the book blends exploration (and fighting) in machine and on foot quite well. Oh and one of those illustrations blatantly rips off Starscream from the Transformers! Have you also seen Zoidzilla on para 52? I quite like the riffing on the idea of Tyrannosaur [skeleton] at the museum coming to life. and the one below reminds me a bit of the 1980's Optimus Prime.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jan 4, 2022 15:31:51 GMT
I hadnt made the connection on that one, but now that you mention it! I guess the whole concept of the book probably sought to capitalize on the popularity of the Transformers. Ive said elsewhere that I wonder if the makers of the Pacific Rim movies played this gamebook as kids or took inspiration from the cover.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 4, 2022 15:55:52 GMT
I hadnt made the connection on that one, but now that you mention it! I guess the whole concept of the book probably sought to capitalize on the popularity of the Transformers. Ive said elsewhere that I wonder if the makers of the Pacific Rim movies played this gamebook as kids or took inspiration from the cover. Have you heard of the Battletech franchise which came out in the mid 80's? Human factions piloting big stompy robots and blasting each other. A precursor to Adeptus Titanicus. There's even a type of robot called the 'commando'.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 4, 2022 15:57:10 GMT
I have to be honest.. I * haven't read * Robot Commando. It's one of the three FF gamebooks I haven't read, together with Black Vein Prophecy, which I heard is good, although it has a few misprint with the 'turn to' references, and Blood Of The Zombies, which I won't be bothering with. Is Robot Commando any good? I like Jackson (US's) other stuff.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 4, 2022 16:07:52 GMT
I have to be honest.. I * haven't read * Robot Commando. It's one of the three FF gamebooks I haven't read, together with Black Vein Prophecy, which I heard is good, although it has a few misprint with the 'turn to' references, and Blood Of The Zombies, which I won't be bothering with. Is Robot Commando any good? I like Jackson (US's) other stuff. Yes, it's worth reading and playing. Play it through fairly and see how you get on with maximum effort and thought. And on the topic of one of my personal hobby-horses with these books... in the dedications (American) Steve Jackson dedicates Robot Commando to his grandparents and then goes on to thank his playtesters. Of which there are 8. You read that right - he ran it past other people first.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 4, 2022 16:18:05 GMT
I have to be honest.. I * haven't read * Robot Commando. It's one of the three FF gamebooks I haven't read, together with Black Vein Prophecy, which I heard is good, although it has a few misprint with the 'turn to' references, and Blood Of The Zombies, which I won't be bothering with. Is Robot Commando any good? I like Jackson (US's) other stuff. It seems to divide people a bit - some rate it highly, others (myself included) not so much. It's cheap enough online that it's worth tracking down to give it a go.
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Post by The Count on Jan 4, 2022 16:23:55 GMT
All three have several routes through and multiple successful endings, and would be great entry level books as well as being challenging if you choose certain options. Why there has not been a concerted effort by Scholastic to get these republished is beyond me.
Robot Commando I find dull these days, and it didn't really grab my attention at the time either, as the concept doesn't appeal.
Scorpion Swamp is one of my absolute favourites, the unique way of exploring hasn't been revisited by anyone FF author since which is a shame, and it can be made fiendishly difficult my doing Grimslade with low stats. Unfortunately, the neutral / Poomchucker mission is uninspired and a bit of a waste of the half a dozen or so paragraphs devoted towards it.
Demons of the Deep is another favourite and just gets the edge as it requires you to actually read it so you can work out what is happening, and you can find at least one of the ways to win even if you don't. The very clever continuity nod towards CoT is a bonus.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 4, 2022 16:45:46 GMT
Demons of the Deep is another favourite and just gets the edge as it requires you to actually read it so you can work out what is happening, and you can find at least one of the ways to win even if you don't. The very clever continuity nod towards CoT is a bonus. What's the connection again?
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jan 4, 2022 17:19:30 GMT
I hadnt made the connection on that one, but now that you mention it! I guess the whole concept of the book probably sought to capitalize on the popularity of the Transformers. Ive said elsewhere that I wonder if the makers of the Pacific Rim movies played this gamebook as kids or took inspiration from the cover. Have you heard of the Battletech franchise which came out in the mid 80's? Human factions piloting big stompy robots and blasting each other. A precursor to Adeptus Titanicus. There's even a type of robot called the 'commando'. Actually no, I am unfamiliar with Battletech. Does it have giant monsters as well? I enjoyed Demons of the Deep well enough, I just found it a bit too easy. When I beat a book in my first sitting I feel kind of gypped out of the thrill of victory and accomplishment. I will say though that I thought the place where you can take a chance on re-rolling your initial stats was an excellent idea. That could have been put to good use in some other books to add some strategy and perhaps not instantly doom a starting character with low skill.
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Post by The Count on Jan 4, 2022 17:40:46 GMT
Demons of the Deep is another favourite and just gets the edge as it requires you to actually read it so you can work out what is happening, and you can find at least one of the ways to win even if you don't. The very clever continuity nod towards CoT is a bonus. What's the connection again? This could just be a happy coincidence The first Black Pearls you find are the eyes of the Skeletons you beat early in the book, and become the eyes of those you summon later.
Which might explain why it's the component that doesn't work against Bone in CoT
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Post by nathanh on Jan 4, 2022 18:21:23 GMT
Demons just edged it for me, but it was very close. I think Demons is just a little more atmospheric and a little less mechanical than the other two. Across all the books I like that he seemed to take the game side seriously and put effort into making them very playable.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 4, 2022 18:32:00 GMT
I must admit I am very sympathetic to all of these efforts. I have voted for Scorpion Swamp simply because it is the earliest effort and it anticipates Night of the Necromancer in that the dice rolls can take you in different directions.
Nevertheless I believe all three are entitled to go through whatever the democratic votes deliver.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 4, 2022 22:23:11 GMT
What's the connection again? This could just be a happy coincidence The first Black Pearls you find are the eyes of the Skeletons you beat early in the book, and become the eyes of those you summon later.
Which might explain why it's the component that doesn't work against Bone in CoT Sounds like a very big stretch.
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Post by The Count on Jan 5, 2022 1:10:04 GMT
This could just be a happy coincidence The first Black Pearls you find are the eyes of the Skeletons you beat early in the book, and become the eyes of those you summon later.
Which might explain why it's the component that doesn't work against Bone in CoT Sounds like a very big stretch. It could be, or it could be a sign of someone who did his research by reading at least the first 5-6 FF books before writing his first as he clearly understands the background, rules and mechanics of the FF system much better than the other two - which is highly likely since he is a very successful game designer and had his books playtested independently.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2022 5:11:31 GMT
It probably is a stretch, but then again I did have a similar thought linking the two (as mentioned in the Immersion Breakers thread) albeit in reverse. If two of us made the link, maybe it's reasonable to assume the black pearls – eyes – skeletons connection was deliberate.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jan 5, 2022 10:24:14 GMT
Sounds like a very big stretch. It could be, or it could be a sign of someone who did his research by reading at least the first 5-6 FF books before writing his first as he clearly understands the background, rules and mechanics of the FF system much better than the other two - which is highly likely since he is a very successful game designer and had his books playtested independently. The references to Blacksand would seem to suggest a bit of familiarity with the earlier books. I believe Scorpion Swamp also has a reference to Deathtrap Dungeon (which makes less sense after the swamp was later placed in Khul rather than Allansia). I suppose these references might have been placed in there by a diligent editor rather than Steve 2 though.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 5, 2022 12:35:11 GMT
The references to Blacksand would seem to suggest a bit of familiarity with the earlier books. I believe Scorpion Swamp also has a reference to Deathtrap Dungeon (which makes less sense after the swamp was later placed in Khul rather than Allansia). I suppose these references might have been placed in there by a diligent editor rather than Steve 2 though. Which diligent editor might that be, I wonder? The most diligent they had was Robin Waterfield, and I'm doubtful whether he would insert copy into someone else's gamebook. I think it's clear (and the playtesting credits back this up) that Steve himself was diligent, and had a pretty clear idea of how much he could rely on Puffin for checking.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jan 5, 2022 14:12:56 GMT
The most diligent they had was Robin Waterfield, and I'm doubtful whether he would insert copy into someone else's gamebook. I dunno about that - I suspect he's responsible for the infamous floor puzzle in Space Assassin (not sure it was definitely him but Chapman said it was added by an editor and it's very similar to Phantoms of Fear's Trial of Ghosts).
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jan 5, 2022 16:18:51 GMT
The most diligent they had was Robin Waterfield, and I'm doubtful whether he would insert copy into someone else's gamebook. I dunno about that - I suspect he's responsible for the infamous floor puzzle in Space Assassin (not sure it was definitely him but Chapman said it was added by an editor and it's very similar to Phantoms of Fear's Trial of Ghosts). Why was that floor puzzle added anyway? Was the book too short without it? Seems very strange messing with someone else's book to that degree.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jan 5, 2022 16:23:35 GMT
I dunno about that - I suspect he's responsible for the infamous floor puzzle in Space Assassin (not sure it was definitely him but Chapman said it was added by an editor and it's very similar to Phantoms of Fear's Trial of Ghosts). Why was that floor puzzle added anyway? Was the book too short without it? Seems very strange messing with someone else's book to that degree. Space Assassin wasn't originally written as a Fighting Fantasy book. Andrew Chapman came across a copy of Warlock of Firetop Mountain unaware it was part of a series and decided to write his own gamebook using his own rules and sent it to Puffin. Puffin's editors then altered it to fit with the other FF books - changing the rules and adding content to get it to 400 sections. The floor puzzle was presumably part of the additions.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 5, 2022 16:31:51 GMT
I didn't mind Phantoms Of Fear's Trial of Ghosts - it was short, the difficulty and description were about right (I even liked the picture), and it wasn't even on the true path. Not so much the Space Assassin's floor puzzle, but then that was quite off the beaten track, and more unmemorable than something I'd hate. Was that the one where you sat in a chair, and it turned out to be a to-the-death Star Trek-esque combat versus the machine? What was it? I think my tolerance for below-average or average puzzles has increased from those dreadful 'puzzles' in Make Your Own Adventure With Doctor Who\Find Your Fate Doctor Who.
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