The Sorcery series without the magic entries?

[misomiso]

How many entries would each of the Sorcery! books have if you took out all the 'magic' entries? 

By that I mean all the paragraphs that deal with magical effects that don't work lets say. 

Just curious, as Shamuntati hills looks very thin as a book (Not criticising Love the series).

ty

[CharlesX]

Do you mean those effects which don't work because the spell code-word is wrong, and/or those effects which don't work because you don't have the correct magical artifact? Either way, the book would be quite a bit shorter, obviously. Like you, I love Sorcery!, and as I've mentioned in a different thread, some of the fail entries are some of my favourites, Sorcery! being no exception. For example, with Vangorn The Murderer (one of the best encounters):

SPOILER: Click to show

Cast the DOP spell. "A door opens behind you. Vangorn doesn't move." Lol.

[misomiso]

So for simplicities sake lets say all the 'non-effect' entries. So it doesn't matter whether the spell code is wrong or you don't have the correct artifact, it's a 'fail event' entry.

Like you I agree that some of the fail entries are very good, however I really want to get a feel for how long the book would be as just an adventure.

If you look at FF books over time, they do tend to get longer AND thicker (as in more text per entry on average), however the Sorcery! books are strange in that they are incorporating a totally different games system so it's difficult to really make a judgement as to how long they are compared to Firetop for example.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Mar 22, 2022 13:34:29 GMT misomiso said:

Like you I agree that some of the fail entries are very good, however I really want to get a feel for how long the book would be as just an adventure.

One way might be to laboriously count paragraphs.

But off the top of my head... to get a feel for how long the adventures are, why not have a look at the maps and/or tot up 'encounters'?
Then compare with other FF books. 

[misomiso]

I have! I've re read Sorcery a bunch of times, but it's very difficult.
The 1st book in particular is VERY short; I feel the 2nd and 3rd books are maybe a bit longer than an average book but not by much, and the third is obvioulsy a bit bigger.

I actually paged counted quite a few FF books to get an idea on how the length of them over time and they've definately got more wordy. Howl of the Werewolf not only has 540 entires but is INCREDIBLY thick as well. Lots and lots of text.

[slloyd14]

I remember all the spell entries being put at the back after the story entries. I remember that the Shamutanti hills wouldn't make 400 sections without spells. Something like 380?

[drmanhattan]

I can probably get the answer to this as I annotated every single reference in SH including all spell refs and marked with Xs the ones which didn’t work, ill see if I can find my notes. It is quite a lot of duff references though.

[misomiso]

drmanhattan - yes please!

[slloyd14]

Here's the lengths of the books if you play as a warrior (so no magic entries at all). All of the spell entries are after the gamebook entries, so I just looked at where the last gamebook entry was and then added 1 for the victory section at the end.

Shamutanti Hills
Total sections - 456
Sections with no magic at all- 287
Total spell sections - 169
Sections with fake spells - 58
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 4

Khare
Total sections - 511
Sections with no magic at all - 337
Total spell sections - 164
Sections with fake spells - 17 (not including references to VIK)
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 1

Seven Serpents

Total sections - 498
Sections with no magic at all - 343
Total spell sections - 155
Sections with fake spells - 2
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 1

Crown of the Kings

Total sections - 800
Sections with no magic at all - 481
Total spell sections - 319
Sections with fake spells - 0
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 0 (makes sense as you can get any item in book 3)

[scouserob]

Aug 13, 2022 9:42:54 GMT slloyd14 said:

Here's the lengths of the books if you play as a warrior (so no magic entries at all). All of the spell entries are after the gamebook entries, so I just looked at where the last gamebook entry was and then added 1 for the victory section at the end.

Shamutanti Hills
Total sections - 456
Sections with no magic at all- 287
Total spell sections - 169
Sections with fake spells - 58
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 4

I think there may even less references when playing these as a non-spell casting warrior.

For example in The Shamutanti Hills when

SPOILER: Click to show

the invisible serpent wraps itself around your arm

you have the choice to use magic spell in which case you go to reference 275 to choose one.
A non-spell casting warrior would never visit this reference.

[slloyd14]

Aug 13, 2022 10:18:42 GMT scouserob said:

Aug 13, 2022 9:42:54 GMT slloyd14 said:

Here's the lengths of the books if you play as a warrior (so no magic entries at all). All of the spell entries are after the gamebook entries, so I just looked at where the last gamebook entry was and then added 1 for the victory section at the end.

Shamutanti Hills
Total sections - 456
Sections with no magic at all- 287
Total spell sections - 169
Sections with fake spells - 58
Sections with spells where you can't have obtained the item yet - 4

I think there may even less references when playing these as a non-spell casting warrior.

For example in The Shamutanti Hills when

SPOILER: Click to show

the invisible serpent wraps itself around your arm

you have the choice to use magic spell in which case you go to reference 275 to choose one.
A warrior would never visit this reference.

Good point, I didn't think of that.

[CharlesX]

Thanks for that slloyd14 I don't think I was aware Sorcery! Crown Of Kings has no section with fake spells. My remembrance is Sorcery! has many spells which do nothing or don't work after you meet Jann the Minimite.

[slloyd14]

Aug 13, 2022 11:47:52 GMT CharlesX said:

Thanks for that slloyd14 I don't think I was aware Sorcery! Crown Of Kings has no section with fake spells. My remembrance is Sorcery! has many spells which do nothing or don't work after you meet Jann the Minimite.

Ah, good point. I had forgotten about that bit as well. That would come under the spell sections.

[slloyd14]

Aug 13, 2022 13:05:17 GMT slloyd14 said:

Aug 13, 2022 11:47:52 GMT CharlesX said:

Thanks for that slloyd14 I don't think I was aware Sorcery! Crown Of Kings has no section with fake spells. My remembrance is Sorcery! has many spells which do nothing or don't work after you meet Jann the Minimite.

Ah, good point. I had forgotten about that bit as well. That would come under the spell sections.

Also it looks like maybe Steve got some negative feedback about the fake spell sections as time went on? There were big drops between 1 and 2 and then 2 and 3 and none in book 4.

[misomiso]

Really interesting analysis though. I never really understood how short the Sorcery books are without the spell entries, as they still feel quite long! Especially the 2nd one. Guess it's just good writing.

[philsadler]

What do you mean by 'fake' spells? Spells that don't exist at all?

[CharlesX]

Aug 13, 2022 17:09:50 GMT philsadler said:

What do you mean by 'fake' spells? Spells that don't exist at all?

I'm imagining slloyd14 means those three-letter spell code options which don't match those in the Sorcery! spellbook. Steve often makes these close to possible spell-letter codes, but of course you lose Stamina and there is absolutely no effect. Most of the time Steve will use the words "There is no such spell as this".
   This is distinct from those spells which may or may not work depending whether you have the required object (the option sometimes being given when you can't have got the object), and those spells which are just irrelevant to the situation.

[scouserob]

Aug 13, 2022 17:09:50 GMT philsadler said:

What do you mean by 'fake' spells? Spells that don't exist at all?

Yeah.
For example BAM, YAG, WIK, KIL, RIS, RUN and ZEL are all options given near the start of the quest for spell casting.
None of them are actually spells (at least from your spell book).

They all seem to cost you 5 stamina points if you try to cast them.

The Shamutanti Hills, I think, has one or two fake ones every single time you have choice of five spells.

I’m glad he got rid of them as the books progressed.
They were practically a waste of a reference.

The Seven Serpents benefits from having 5 real spells to consider in each spell casting occasion.

[tyrion]

I think the fake spells act as a learning curve. There are fewer as the series progresses, which I think represents you becoming more familiar with the spells and less likely to choose a fake spell.

[slloyd14]

Aug 13, 2022 17:20:53 GMT CharlesX said:

Aug 13, 2022 17:09:50 GMT philsadler said:

What do you mean by 'fake' spells? Spells that don't exist at all?

I'm imagining slloyd14 means those three-letter spell code options which don't match those in the Sorcery! spellbook. Steve often makes these close to possible spell-letter codes, but of course you lose Stamina and there is absolutely no effect. Most of the time Steve will use the words "There is no such spell as this".
   This is distinct from those spells which may or may not work depending whether you have the required object (the option sometimes being given when you can't have got the object), and those spells which are just irrelevant to the situation.

Exactly. I did not list spells that require an object that you might have because that could be a valid use. I only listed spells that you couldn't have possibly found the object for.

[slloyd14]

Aug 13, 2022 19:05:01 GMT tyrion said:

I think the fake spells act as a learning curve. There are fewer as the series progresses, which I think represents you becoming more familiar with the spells and less likely to choose a fake spell.

Good point - it's a subtle way of showing that your character gets better over time.

[vastariner]

Aug 13, 2022 20:38:14 GMT slloyd14 said:

Aug 13, 2022 19:05:01 GMT tyrion said:

I think the fake spells act as a learning curve. There are fewer as the series progresses, which I think represents you becoming more familiar with the spells and less likely to choose a fake spell.

Good point - it's a subtle way of showing that your character gets better over time.

Actually says that in the rubric for using magic.  Also that there is a logic to their arrangement, which has evaded me, unless it is the

SPOILER: Click to show

tendency for the cheaper spells to be useless in Mampang,

or simply the obvious meaning of most of the codes.