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Post by slloyd14 on Aug 1, 2022 14:10:36 GMT
I think the monkey encounter is inevitable but you can choose to not take the monkey with you. That's what I thought - so if you go through the book, whatever decisions you take on e.g. direction, you have a guaranteed chance (subject to dice rolls) of having everything you need to win.
That's actually quite clever in IotLK; if you miss a key item, you still get a chance of getting it. (Are the fire swords on a guaranteed path as well? Do you have to go through the kitchen?)
You have to go somewhere but you can miss them and end up in a prison with a shape changer. |
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 1, 2022 15:31:15 GMT
I was looking through the 3 authors who stand out not just for using mandatory McGuffin, but often lots of them in a single book: Livingstone, Martin and Green. Interestingly, Keith Martin's very first book Stealer of Souls, technically requires no McGuffins to win (although there are plenty of helpful ones lying around that makes the game practically a walkover if you find most of them), but his later ones all require several; meanwhile, for Jonathan Green's books, on the hand, the earlier ones require mandatory McGuffin, but the very last one, Night of the Necromancer, doesn't require any (unless you count regaining your own sword Nightslayer as one, in which case you only need the one). I'm not sure how many MacGuffins there are in Vault Of The Vampire, aside from requiring a magic weapon to defeat the Count (which isn't difficult to get) IIRC most of the special objects and equipment might be tropey but they aren't essential. Night Dragon has the usual big bag of codewords and non-essential but helpful MacGuffins but OOTH you only need two or even one of the Sword, Shield and Armour before you attack the Dragon (even though you'd be ill-advised not to try for & probably get three). I guess a bit depends on whether your definition of MacGuffin is mandatory or just helpful; either way it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me SOS and VOTV are two of his best FFs, while most of his others have the reader bogged down decoding and working out what special objects to purchase and use for the weekend to come. |
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Post by a moderator on Aug 1, 2022 20:08:57 GMT
The crypt keys are the only essential item in Vault. There are alternatives for everything else that's required: you need a magic sword, but there are three to choose from (two generic and one epic), the Shield of Faith works as a substitute cross if you miss both opportunities to get a proper one, and Siegfried's sword can take the place of the stake.
Is any single item indispensable in Tower of Destruction? Plenty of useful ones, but is there anything that you must have or you will die?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 2, 2022 12:16:46 GMT
The crypt keys are the only essential item in Vault. There are alternatives for everything else that's required: you need a magic sword, but there are three to choose from (two generic and one epic), the Shield of Faith works as a substitute cross if you miss both opportunities to get a proper one, and Siegfried's sword can take the place of the stake. Is any single item indispensable in Tower of Destruction? Plenty of useful ones, but is there anything that you must have or you will die? You need the Ice Sword to summon Elokinan at the very end. |
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Post by tyrion on Aug 2, 2022 18:33:34 GMT
You don't need any items in sword of the samurai, but you do need to learn one piece of information (which you are told about in the introduction and you are guaranteed the option of asking about).
Lots of useful items though.
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Post by a moderator on Aug 2, 2022 20:35:12 GMT
You don't need any items in sword of the samurai, but you do need to learn one piece of information (which you are told about in the introduction and you are guaranteed the option of asking about). If you mean the secret of Singing Death you don't even need to learn that. The odds of your surviving the final battle without it are drastically reduced, but winning is still theoretically possible. |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 3, 2022 15:00:05 GMT
You do need to have either the item to summon the Tiger or one to summon the Serpent.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 3, 2022 15:29:56 GMT
You do need to have either the item to summon the Tiger or one to summon the Serpent. Can you avoid BOTH encounters though? I think the Tiger one is an inevitable one if you are on Path A. |
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Post by a moderator on Aug 3, 2022 16:23:30 GMT
You do need to have either the item to summon the Tiger or one to summon the Serpent. Can you avoid BOTH encounters though? I think the Tiger one is an inevitable one if you are on Path A. One of the special skills makes it possible to Escape from the fight that provides the item. Still, there's a significant difference between 'either/or' and 'only', so Sword counts as 'McGuffinless' for the purposes of this thread. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Aug 3, 2022 16:35:20 GMT
How do all the codewords in Night of the Necromancer fit the criteria here?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 3, 2022 18:44:17 GMT
Can you avoid BOTH encounters though? I think the Tiger one is an inevitable one if you are on Path A. One of the special skills makes it possible to Escape from the fight that provides the item. Still, there's a significant difference between 'either/or' and 'only', so Sword counts as 'McGuffinless' for the purposes of this thread. Am I misunderstanding the term Mcguffinless? I thought it meant that you don't need any specific items or information in order to complete the adventure. AFAIK In Sword of the Samurai you DO need either the Horn to get the Tiger on Path A, or the Antler to get the Serpent on Path B. The Toad Demon kills all other allies you have. Without allies you cannot get past the Arena. So getting either the Horn or the Antler is essential to making any more progress. |
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Post by a moderator on Aug 3, 2022 20:20:31 GMT
How do all the codewords in Night of the Necromancer fit the criteria here? Not sure. Based on my experience of the book (which has yet to include a successful attempt), it looks as if there is at least a data-based McGuffin. Don't you need to learn the right way to refer to Unthank to get past a door? One of the special skills makes it possible to Escape from the fight that provides the item. Still, there's a significant difference between 'either/or' and 'only', so Sword counts as 'McGuffinless' for the purposes of this thread. Am I misunderstanding the term Mcguffinless? I thought it meant that you don't need any specific items or information in order to complete the adventure. AFAIK In Sword of the Samurai you DO need either the Horn to get the Tiger on Path A, or the Antler to get the Serpent on Path B. The Toad Demon kills all other allies you have. Without allies you cannot get past the Arena. So getting either the Horn or the Antler is essential to making any more progress. You need one or the other. But the way the term has been used in this thread refers to one or more utterly indispensable items, not a menu of items from which you must have at least one but any one of them will do. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Aug 4, 2022 12:04:02 GMT
How do all the codewords in Night of the Necromancer fit the criteria here? Not sure. Based on my experience of the book (which has yet to include a successful attempt), it looks as if there is at least a data-based McGuffin. Don't you need to learn the right way to refer to Unthank to get past a door? I have not played the book for a while but you need either a codeword or to win a fight to be able to answer who is the current Lord of Valsinore. I was definitely being a bit autistic when I insisted you need the codeword and only the codeword. The structure is definitely there where you can win a fight and have a more limited disclosure that precludes you from attempting to go for the Spirit Stone. I think I agree with Sylas I am not exactly sure what rules you are applying in this thread in general. I am astounded you have never completed the book. Your knowledge is so strong I thought you must know all the major books like the back of your hand. As a matter of interest do you find the book a bit uninspiring or have you just not got round to really unpacking all the lovely ideas in the book(hint as to what I think)? |
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Post by vastariner on Aug 4, 2022 14:22:51 GMT
Am I misunderstanding the term Mcguffinless? I thought it meant that you don't need any specific items or information in order to complete the adventure. AFAIK In Sword of the Samurai you DO need either the Horn to get the Tiger on Path A, or the Antler to get the Serpent on Path B. The Toad Demon kills all other allies you have. Without allies you cannot get past the Arena. So getting either the Horn or the Antler is essential to making any more progress. Might be easier to define the opposite. A book which you can only complete if you get something that you can only get on one specific route. I.e. you could play a "perfect" game by going through a book and winning every fight, making every luck roll, and pulling off various side-quests. But, because you went left rather than right at ref 1, you missed out on the Widget of Destiny that is required to beat the boss.
So a book like e.g. Robot Commando does not expect you to go one specific way. And I think with Sword of the Samurai your compulsory item(s) is on a route you cannot avoid taking (once you've chosen the easy or hard path). Therefore you're not going to miss out because of a route choice. You may get things wrong when trying to get the item, but at least you're going to get the chance.
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Post by a moderator on Aug 4, 2022 20:12:38 GMT
Am I misunderstanding the term Mcguffinless? I thought it meant that you don't need any specific items or information in order to complete the adventure. AFAIK In Sword of the Samurai you DO need either the Horn to get the Tiger on Path A, or the Antler to get the Serpent on Path B. The Toad Demon kills all other allies you have. Without allies you cannot get past the Arena. So getting either the Horn or the Antler is essential to making any more progress. Might be easier to define the opposite. A book which you can only complete if you get something that you can only get on one specific route. I.e. you could play a "perfect" game by going through a book and winning every fight, making every luck roll, and pulling off various side-quests. But, because you went left rather than right at ref 1, you missed out on the Widget of Destiny that is required to beat the boss. By that definition The Rings of Kether is McGuffinless after all, because you can learn the location of Zera Gross' island base either by going to the Isosceles Tower and reading her 'confidential' memo or by going through the car chase and recovering the box of incriminating documents. Also, Island of the Lizard King goes back on the McGuffinless list because there’s more than one way to get a Fire Sword. Unless you choose to accept various different endings as forms of success, The Crimson Tide has a McGuffin, but that McGuffin is ‘a specific series of choices steering your character’s development in a particular direction’ rather than an item or specific clue. Which is a pretty odd kind of McGuffin, but then, it's a pretty odd book (which I do not say as a criticism). A wrong turning on the harder path in Sword means missing out on that specific route’s crucial item, but that’s irrelevant here. The existence on two separate routes through the book of two items, either of which make it possible to recruit an ally to deal with Graalsch, qualifies Sword as McGuffinless. |
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Post by nathanh on Aug 5, 2022 9:26:15 GMT
On Night of the Necromancer, I answered the questions by guessing the first time I reached them anyway.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Aug 5, 2022 12:37:03 GMT
On Night of the Necromancer, I answered the questions by guessing the first time I reached them anyway. Gulp. Does this take us into classic House of Hell territory? |
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Post by a moderator on Aug 5, 2022 13:45:56 GMT
On Night of the Necromancer, I answered the questions by guessing the first time I reached them anyway. Gulp. Does this take us into classic House of Hell territory? For this thread House of Hell is unambiguous: regardless of whether or not guessing the password is acceptable, the need to have the dining room key and the Kris knife clearly disqualifies the book from the McGuffinless list. |
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 5, 2022 15:00:50 GMT
Nitpicking, but wouldn't these be better called something like 'essential' or 'critical' items/information rather than MacGuffins? My understanding is a MacGuffin is an object that drives the plot but is otherwise fairly irrelevant. So the hammer would be a MacGuffin in Forest of Doom, but the dust of levitation wouldn't be. |
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Aug 5, 2022 15:22:52 GMT
Gulp. Does this take us into classic House of Hell territory? For this thread House of Hell is unambiguous: regardless of whether or not guessing the password is acceptable, the need to have the dining room key and the Kris knife clearly disqualifies the book from the McGuffinless list. I am not going to go off at a tangent but my feeling is the password has to be disclosed by the appropriate clues and also the questions in Night of the Necromancer have to be disclosed by the appropriate clues. As someone helpfully pointed out one of the clues is revealed in two distinct locations. Also the revelation of Who is the current Lord of Valsinore is revealed either by the codeword or winning the fight. The very helpful matrix(not Neo) shows you should just win the fight even with my parsimonious system. This later work is so much fairer compared to the earlier works. |
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