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Post by vastariner on Jul 30, 2022 13:39:26 GMT
Something that came to mind when thinking about Sir Ian's books.
How many FF books can be completed without a specific item? Not counting the artifact (if there is one) that is the aim of the book (e.g. the Forest of Doom hammer).
I would think not that many...just for the first ten:
1 WoFTM: need the right keys 2 CoC: do you need a specific item to get past the Ganjees? Can't remember 3 FoD: cannot get the full hammer without the armband of strength 4 ST: three things plus a tattoo
6 DD: 7 IotLK: it's harder to complete without certain things, but distinctly possible
8 SS: also possible
9 CotSW: 10 HoH:
Kris knife, for which you need a password
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 30, 2022 14:46:03 GMT
Most FFs require a fairly specific path through, in some ways more like a puzzle than an adventure gamebook, on top of which they also often require good dice-rolling, and do-or-die rolls particularly in the case of Ian, Luke and Jonathan. If, like me, you prefer the gamebook experience you will find many other gamebook series have the same concerns of these semi-unfair gamebooks, including some very good series such as Lone Wolf and Golden Dragon. Livingstone has a specific style of writing which grates on many and presumably some like (like Keith Martin and Luke Sharp), his Deathtrap Dungeon uses the MacGuffins with near-perfect skill, while say Caverns Of The Show Witch is written like a simplistic dungeon crawl and doesn't feel like his best work in spite of having very few MacGuffins.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 30, 2022 17:12:18 GMT
2 CoC: do you need a specific item to get past the Ganjees? Can't remember The jar of ointment
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Post by a moderator on Jul 30, 2022 17:23:13 GMT
2 CoC: do you need a specific item to get past the Ganjees? Can't remember There are two items that can get you past the Ganjees, but one of them is on a path on which you cannot learn the combination to the lock - and if you're counting information as an item in books 4 and 10, the combination should count in this one. The essential item is the Dust of Levitation. The Armband of Strength can enable you to acquire the Dust, but you can also get the Dust by succeeding at a series of Skill rolls, so you don't absolutely need the Armband. Four things. Okay, so one of the four turns out not to be needed, but you can't get to the revelation that it's not required unless you have it, so you need to obtain it in order to learn that you don't have to use it. And an iron key. Which is found alongside one of those three gems, but it's still a separate essential item. Either of two discs can work if you do the right thing, so neither is absolutely essential.
However, you cannot succeed without the runestick used to stake the Snow Witch. Also the dining room key.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 30, 2022 18:48:07 GMT
About 14-15 of them.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 30, 2022 20:24:26 GMT
Off the top of my head, Scorpion Swamp (all quests), Space Assassin and Spectral Stalkers, seas of blood, Demons of the Deep (not the best ending but you survive), Daggers of Darkness and Fangs of Fury.
OK, it was off the top of my head, then I started checking.
There are probably more.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 30, 2022 20:30:48 GMT
It gets a bit hazy in some instances where information is needed. Does 'the knowledge that Zera Gross is based in the Isosceles Tower' in Rings constitute a McGuffin as defined in this thread? There's never a check for that information - you automatically go to the tower when you find out that's where she is (unless you want to waste time on a satellite first) - but if you don't learn it, you eventually run out of leads. Can you get to London without finding its coordinates on a Grom computer in Star Strider? How do we classify the required codewords in The Crimson Tide? I think 14-15 might actually be a bit low. The OP identified 8 books that have at least one 'find it or fail' item or datum. I can add 18 more from the first 50: Freeway FighterPlastic tubing to siphon petrol. Temple of TerrorA telescope to trade for the crystal dragon. Appointment with F.E.A.R.A circuit jammer. Rebel PlanetElmonite explosive. Trial of ChampionsMore than a dozen items and three numerical combinations. Masks of MayhemOrb, sceptre, seeds, information on how to use them. Creature of HavocThe secret door-detecting amulet, for starters. Crypt of the SorcererPlenty of stuff and trivia. Midnight RogueThree clues, even if two say the same thing and the third just says where those two are. Battleblade WarriorThe Eye of Telak. Slaves of the AbyssSige's pomander, a sense of humour. Armies of DeathIt's an Ian book. Of course you need info and a mound of gubbins. Portal of EvilIgneolite. Master of ChaosThe Necromancer's key. Black Vein ProphecyA Chang whistle, that jar, a spell or two... Legend of the Shadow WarriorsThe spear. Siege of SardathPotion ingredients, the amulet, other things. Return to Firetop MountainIan Livingstone. 'Nuff said. Am I missing anything? I make it more than 20 of the first 50 that don't have some 'item/clue X' that you absolutely MUST get to be able to win - even if that's often because you can get away with using items Y and Z instead.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 30, 2022 20:50:20 GMT
Well-written a moderator , and that makes me think of Starship Traveller, where you can at one point be told the Warp Speed you need to go through the womhole - though this piece of information is neither important nor checked nor even referenced the once after you might find it out. With Sorcery! Steve Jackson deliberately references a few 'red herring\useless' objects as has been mentioned elsewhere (judiciously, unlike Ian), however in this case he seems to have just forgot. Paradoxically in the 'poor' Eye Of The Dragon you can miss some of the MacGuffins and still win outright or with luck. There's absolutely nothing wrong with MacGuffins when they're well-implemented, Seige Of Sardath has a really linear path with you not only having to fetchquest a Lightning Sphere and Brainslayer Amulet but knowing exactly when to use them, and is one of the very best FFs.
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Post by vastariner on Jul 30, 2022 23:36:00 GMT
It gets a bit hazy in some instances where information is needed. Does 'the knowledge that Zera Gross is based in the Isosceles Tower' in Rings constitute a McGuffin as defined in this thread? There's never a check for that information - you automatically go to the tower when you find out that's where she is (unless you want to waste time on a satellite first) - but if you don't learn it, you eventually run out of leads. The idea is that that DOES fall within the definition. You cannot complete the book without that info. And it's not something that's an inevitability, like e.g. getting a mission in Scorpion Swamp. I was idly thinking which books you could rattle through and get to the finish without any compulsory choices. In essence, with nothing more than what you have at the introduction stage, or anything you cannot avoid having. You can with IotLK; you can't with any of the books beforehand. You can with Space Assassin (which is what prompted me).
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 31, 2022 0:53:27 GMT
It gets a bit hazy in some instances where information is needed. Does 'the knowledge that Zera Gross is based in the Isosceles Tower' in Rings constitute a McGuffin as defined in this thread? There's never a check for that information - you automatically go to the tower when you find out that's where she is (unless you want to waste time on a satellite first) - but if you don't learn it, you eventually run out of leads. The idea is that that DOES fall within the definition. You cannot complete the book without that info. And it's not something that's an inevitability, like e.g. getting a mission in Scorpion Swamp. I was idly thinking which books you could rattle through and get to the finish without any compulsory choices. In essence, with nothing more than what you have at the introduction stage, or anything you cannot avoid having. You can with IotLK; you can't with any of the books beforehand. You can with Space Assassin (which is what prompted me). Keep of the Lich Lord and Spectral Stalkers come to mind where you can successfully stumble across the finish line using what you start with.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 31, 2022 1:16:32 GMT
It gets a bit hazy in some instances where information is needed. Does 'the knowledge that Zera Gross is based in the Isosceles Tower' in Rings constitute a McGuffin as defined in this thread? There's never a check for that information - you automatically go to the tower when you find out that's where she is (unless you want to waste time on a satellite first) - but if you don't learn it, you eventually run out of leads. The idea is that that DOES fall within the definition. You cannot complete the book without that info. And it's not something that's an inevitability, like e.g. getting a mission in Scorpion Swamp. I was idly thinking which books you could rattle through and get to the finish without any compulsory choices. In essence, with nothing more than what you have at the introduction stage, or anything you cannot avoid having. You can with IotLK; you can't with any of the books beforehand. You can with Space Assassin (which is what prompted me). But what if there's more than one way to get something which is required? The location of Zera's island base in TRoK can be obtained by visiting the Tower or by forcing the sloop off the road in the car chase (I had incorrectly remembered the precise nature of the crucial lead), so there's no 'compulsory choice' to get it.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 31, 2022 5:06:34 GMT
The idea is that that DOES fall within the definition. You cannot complete the book without that info. And it's not something that's an inevitability, like e.g. getting a mission in Scorpion Swamp. I was idly thinking which books you could rattle through and get to the finish without any compulsory choices. In essence, with nothing more than what you have at the introduction stage, or anything you cannot avoid having. You can with IotLK; you can't with any of the books beforehand. You can with Space Assassin (which is what prompted me). Keep of the Lich Lord and Spectral Stalkers come to mind where you can successfully stumble across the finish line using what you start with. Indeed, I completed Spectral Stalkers on my first try and Keep Of The Lich-Lord on my second.. Which left me feeling cheated they were too easy! Maybe we whine too much about the FF difficulty level being set too high.
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Post by philsadler on Jul 31, 2022 5:40:37 GMT
Maybe we whine too much about the FF difficulty level being set too high.
I think though that the reason a lot of FF adventure's difficulty is set 'too high' is simply because the writers keep including powerful enemies that you can't weaken or avoid. I consider that a bit cheap. Whereas what I try to do is to hide the best path and options/items/whatever very well, rather than just say, 'Here's a skill 11 enemy, deal with it.'
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Post by vastariner on Jul 31, 2022 6:11:37 GMT
But what if there's more than one way to get something which is required? The location of Zera's island base in TRoK can be obtained by visiting the Tower or by forcing the sloop off the road in the car chase (I had incorrectly remembered the precise nature of the crucial lead), so there's no 'compulsory choice' to get it. Doesn't matter - like the multiple routes to the correct location in Moonrunner.
The thing is, can you miss Zera's location? Answer: yes. Can you complete the adventure if you do? Answer: no. So it's not a McGuffinless book.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 31, 2022 11:27:53 GMT
The thing is, can you fail to obtain a fire sword in Island of the Lizard King? Answer: yes. Can you complete the adventure if you do? Answer: no. So it's not a McGuffinless book.
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Post by misomiso on Jul 31, 2022 12:53:23 GMT
Keep of the Lich Lord, Stealer of Souls?
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 31, 2022 13:43:30 GMT
The thing is, can you fail to obtain a fire sword in Island of the Lizard King? Answer: yes. Can you complete the adventure if you do? Answer: no. So it's not a McGuffinless book. You need either a monkey or a firesword so I guess it needs a macguffin, just not a specific one.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 31, 2022 14:01:47 GMT
But if you don't have a fire sword, the monkey gives you a chance to get the Lizard King's, and if you fail to get that one, you die. So either way you have to get a fire sword.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 31, 2022 16:23:45 GMT
But if you don't have a fire sword, the monkey gives you a chance to get the Lizard King's, and if you fail to get that one, you die. So either way you have to get a fire sword. Good point.
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Post by vastariner on Jul 31, 2022 18:00:01 GMT
But if you don't have a fire sword, the monkey gives you a chance to get the Lizard King's, and if you fail to get that one, you die. So either way you have to get a fire sword. But the chance to get a fire sword is an inevitability in the book, if you have the monkey. So the monkey does make the book a McGuffined one - if you cannot avoid encountering the monkey, and I'm not sure you can.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 31, 2022 18:53:01 GMT
But if you don't have a fire sword, the monkey gives you a chance to get the Lizard King's, and if you fail to get that one, you die. So either way you have to get a fire sword. But the chance to get a fire sword is an inevitability in the book, if you have the monkey. So the monkey does make the book a McGuffined one - if you cannot avoid encountering the monkey, and I'm not sure you can. I think the monkey encounter is inevitable but you can choose to not take the monkey with you.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 31, 2022 20:05:42 GMT
The monkey is helpful but not essential - if you reach the Lizard King with a fire sword but no monkey, you can still fight him and potentially win. The fire sword is essential - if you reach the Lizard King with a monkey but no fire sword, you have to Test your Luck, and the outcome of that roll determines whether you end up with a monkey, a fire sword, and a chance of winning, or no monkey, no fire sword, and no chance of winning. But the only thing you absolutely need is the fire sword, so that is the McGuffin. On reflection, I think another couple of the first 50 books also have 'get this or fail' items. Vault of the VampireThe crypt keys. There are substitutes for all items of Vampire-slaying paraphernalia, but without those keys, you're not getting within staking distance. Fangs of FuryStone blocks with symbols on. Required to open up the way to the endgame.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 31, 2022 20:31:10 GMT
Fangs of FuryStone blocks with symbols on. Required to open up the way to the endgame. I think it's possible to bypass that maze entirely.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 31, 2022 20:38:59 GMT
Approaching half of FF bosses cannot be slain by steel but require a holy, magic or silver weapon. This isn't cheap but arguably still a cliche, however I can think of few truly original FF concepts (perhaps that deserves its own thread, maybe after the new FFs are out).
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Post by vastariner on Jul 31, 2022 23:11:06 GMT
But the chance to get a fire sword is an inevitability in the book, if you have the monkey. So the monkey does make the book a McGuffined one - if you cannot avoid encountering the monkey, and I'm not sure you can. I think the monkey encounter is inevitable but you can choose to not take the monkey with you. That's what I thought - so if you go through the book, whatever decisions you take on e.g. direction, you have a guaranteed chance (subject to dice rolls) of having everything you need to win.
That's actually quite clever in IotLK; if you miss a key item, you still get a chance of getting it. (Are the fire swords on a guaranteed path as well? Do you have to go through the kitchen?)
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Aug 1, 2022 9:57:48 GMT
It might actually be easier to filter by author.
None of Luke Sharp's books require MacGuffins (not counting the items you start with) to finish, although some may help make the quest easier.
Andrew Chapmen is another author that doesn't go for that in his books.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 1, 2022 12:10:31 GMT
It might actually be easier to filter by author. None of Luke Sharp's books require MacGuffins (not counting the items you start with) to finish, although some may help make the quest easier. Andrew Chapmen is another author that doesn't go for that in his books. Except in Andrew Chapman's excuse for a book, Clash Of The Princes, where there's some stones or passwords or something you have to have got at the end.
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Post by a moderator on Aug 1, 2022 12:54:20 GMT
It might actually be easier to filter by author. None of Luke Sharp's books require MacGuffins (not counting the items you start with) to finish, although some may help make the quest easier. Andrew Chapmen is another author that doesn't go for that in his books. Except in Andrew Chapman's excuse for a book, Clash Of The Princes, where there's some stones or passwords or something you have to have got at the end. Rings or parchments.[/pedant]
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Aug 1, 2022 13:36:23 GMT
It might actually be easier to filter by author. None of Luke Sharp's books require MacGuffins (not counting the items you start with) to finish, although some may help make the quest easier. Andrew Chapmen is another author that doesn't go for that in his books. Except in Andrew Chapman's excuse for a book, Clash Of The Princes, where there's some stones or passwords or something you have to have got at the end. Oh, I never read that one.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Aug 1, 2022 13:53:33 GMT
I was looking through the 3 authors who stand out not just for using mandatory McGuffin, but often lots of them in a single book: Livingstone, Martin and Green.
Interestingly, Keith Martin's very first book Stealer of Souls, technically requires no McGuffins to win (although there are plenty of helpful ones lying around that makes the game practically a walkover if you find most of them), but his later ones all require several; meanwhile, for Jonathan Green's books, on the hand, the earlier ones require mandatory McGuffin, but the very last one, Night of the Necromancer, doesn't require any (unless you count regaining your own sword Nightslayer as one, in which case you only need the one).
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