Dear Old Yellow Pages

[sleepyscholar]

This made me laugh, anyway. Largely because someone has made a meme out of a gag I've been making myself for years.

Cheers
J R Hartley

[thealmightymudworm]

"No, sorry. We've got a book of that name by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone if that's of any interest...?"

[paperexplorer]

Too true. It's amazing that Charlie Higson was the first author to get their name on the cover and not Steve or Ian's

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 11, 2022 1:23:26 GMT paperexplorer said:

Too true. It's amazing that Charlie Higson was the first author to get their name on the cover and not Steve or Ian's

'Amazing' isn't quite the word I'd use. For all my namesake's sterling exploits in describing post-capitalism, I still reckon Higson's name is going to sell a tonne-load more books.

[paperexplorer]

True, maybe I should rephrase. It's amazing it took so long before an author got cover credit

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 11, 2022 3:10:07 GMT paperexplorer said:

True, maybe I should rephrase. It's amazing it took so long before an author got cover credit

Well, you could argue that Steve Jackson (US) got a cover credit years ago!

On the other hand, I'm more surprised that an author did get a cover credit. The argument was that Steve and Ian's names on the cover provided a unifying (and organising -- as the books would be together on author-sorted shelves) principle. But that now doesn't seem to be the case. Or rather, it suggests that the potential uplift in sales to fans of the Fast Show and/or Young James Bond trumps any principle that may or may not have been in play.

[kieran]

Aug 11, 2022 11:46:26 GMT sleepyscholar said:

The argument was that Steve and Ian's names on the cover provided a unifying (and organising -- as the books would be together on author-sorted shelves) principle. But that now doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm guessing most of the books are bought online these days so that's less of a factor. Although I imagine a more significant factor is Higson and Pratchett are of sufficient fame that they could have told Steve and Ian where to go if they suggested sticking their names on the books instead.

[vastariner]

Aug 11, 2022 11:46:26 GMT sleepyscholar said:

The argument was that Steve and Ian's names on the cover provided a unifying (and organising -- as the books would be together on author-sorted shelves) principle. But that now doesn't seem to be the case. Or rather, it suggests that the potential uplift in sales to fans of the Fast Show and/or Young James Bond trumps any principle that may or may not have been in play.

Getting writer's credit at the front of a Fighting Fantasy book is a bit like making love to a beautiful woman.  You've got to spread out the sheet, get the body in order, perhaps use a ligature, ensure everything is justified, and try to avoid falling into the gutter.  Oh, and make sure that you don't mess up the tittles too much.

[paperexplorer]

I'm not sure if Higson would be well known outside of the UK.

I certainly didn't know of him. I'd only learned about him when I recently discovered he'd written a FF book. Jon Green or Keith Martin would have been more meaningful names to me.

Rhianna Pratchett is a different story though

[terrysalt]

I'd never heard of Higson before I read about Gates of Death on this forum. I knew who Terry Pratchett was but knew little of Rhianna's work prior to Crystal of Storms. So I'd say they're both a lot more famous in their home country.

[kieran]

Aug 12, 2022 0:54:20 GMT terrysalt said:

I'd never heard of Higson before I read about Gates of Death on this forum. I knew who Terry Pratchett was but knew little of Rhianna's work prior to Crystal of Storms. So I'd say they're both a lot more famous in their home country.

Probably true of Higson. Pratchett is reasonably well known in the video game community.

[terrysalt]

Aug 12, 2022 7:08:00 GMT kieran said:

Aug 12, 2022 0:54:20 GMT terrysalt said:

I'd never heard of Higson before I read about Gates of Death on this forum. I knew who Terry Pratchett was but knew little of Rhianna's work prior to Crystal of Storms. So I'd say they're both a lot more famous in their home country.

Probably true of Higson. Pratchett is reasonably well known in the video game community.

I knew that she wrote for games but I couldn't tell you any that she worked on except that I think she worked on one of the Tomb Raider games. I knew her name but not her work.

[kieran]

Aug 12, 2022 9:05:52 GMT terrysalt said:

Aug 12, 2022 7:08:00 GMT kieran said:

Probably true of Higson. Pratchett is reasonably well known in the video game community.

I knew that she wrote for games but I couldn't tell you any that she worked on except that I think she worked on one of the Tomb Raider games. I knew her name but not her work.

She was the head writer for the reboot of the Tomb Raider series which got a lot of praise from critics (personally I wasn't really a fan of the direction the series took, but then I'm still mired in the 90s and 90s Lara Croft is about as culturally relevant as the Spice Girls these days). She also had prior success with the Overlord games which were comedy fantasy games. So probably the average person on the street wouldn't know her, but she's definitely famous in certain circles.

[dragonwarrior8]

I never really understood the "celebrity author" approach. Seems like you are just trying to trick people into buying the book instead of putting out the best possible adventure you can and using word of mouth and great reviews to carry it. No one knew who the heck Steve and Ian were when Warlock of Firetop Mountain came out but that didn't stop that book selling like gangbusters.

[CharlesX]

Aug 12, 2022 15:51:38 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

I never really understood the "celebrity author" approach. Seems like you are just trying to trick people into buying the book instead of putting out the best possible adventure you can and using word of mouth and great reviews to carry it. No one knew who the heck Steve and Ian were when Warlock of Firetop Mountain came out but that didn't stop that book selling like gangbusters.

That seems to have been the case, maybe not so much with Rhianna Pratchett but with Charlie Higson. These people writing rant reviews about Eye Of The Dragon link must have been spitting out their drinks when Gates Of Death came out.

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 12, 2022 15:51:38 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

I never really understood the "celebrity author" approach. Seems like you are just trying to trick people into buying the book instead of putting out the best possible adventure you can and using word of mouth and great reviews to carry it. No one knew who the heck Steve and Ian were when Warlock of Firetop Mountain came out but that didn't stop that book selling like gangbusters.

Yeah, but then once the Jackson & Livingstone names were established, they got in a bunch of hacks to churn the things out... So there was a 'celebrity author' aspect to the series from pretty early on! And if you look at publishing, you can see why that is. The most successful crime writer in the UK at present is the presenter of a daytime quiz show, for example.

And for those pointing out that Charlie Higson isn't much known outside the UK, what proportion of FF sales do you reckon come from outside the UK? More than half? It would have to be quite a lot to make the name-value worth spurning.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Once upon a time the big bookshops all had a lot of shelf-space given over to FF. You'd enter the shop and the eye was drawn immediately to the bright green spines. The shops knew to put them all in the same place whether the author was Jackson, Livingstone, or someone else who got their name printed on the inside - and by making them all 'SJ and IL presents' it didn't give booksellers a chance to cock things up by sticking the Andrew Chapman books next to Agatha Christie or John Christopher or whoever.

Have a look at the number of books written by ex-SAS man Chris Ryan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ryan
There's no way he's written all these, is there?
It's his name selling the books ... or perhaps even getting them printed and on the shelves in the first place.

This seems to be how things are.

[CharlesX]

Aug 14, 2022 13:20:34 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Once upon a time the big bookshops all had a lot of shelf-space given over to FF. You'd enter the shop and the eye was drawn immediately to the bright green spines. The shops knew to put them all in the same place whether the author was Jackson, Livingstone, or someone else who got their name printed on the inside - and by making them all 'SJ and IL presents' it didn't give booksellers a chance to cock things up by sticking the Andrew Chapman books next to Agatha Christie or John Christopher or whoever.

Have a look at the number of books written by ex-SAS man Chris Ryan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ryan
There's no way he's written all these, is there?
It's his name selling the books ... or perhaps even getting them printed and on the shelves in the first place.

This seems to be how things are.

That's what they say about Enid Blyton, but apparently she was just a ridiculously hard worker link

[bloodbeasthandler]

Aug 14, 2022 17:43:51 GMT CharlesX said:

That's what they say about Enid Blyton, but apparently she was just a ridiculously hard worker link

Good on her. I didn't doubt Enid Blyton for a moment!

It's going a little bit off topic, this ghostwriting discussion, but I went on to google and it looks like some [many? almost all?] of the Chris Ryan books were written by a man called Matt Lynn. I don't know if he gets any credit at all in the books? I think the same thing was going on with a lot of those novels put out by Andy McNab too when i noticed books apparently by him coming out one after the other. Apart from the autobiographies, I doubt he wrote all them, either.

Our FF writers do at least get a mention in the books. Though I understand that being referred to as 'ghostwriters' by IL or SJ [or both] at a book convention did stick in the craw of some of them and cause a bit of resentment. Or have I dreamt that up?

[philsadler]

Steven King once wrote so many books that his publishers asked him to slow down because they couldn't keep up. His solution? Invent his own writer and call him Richard Bachman and then continue to publish under that name.

[kieran]

Speaking of ghostwriters and our old friends Scholastic, apparently the reason Goosebumps was cancelled was because Scholastic accused RL Stine of using ghost writers, contrary to his contract. There were various legal disputes about it during which Scholastic decided not to extend Stine's contract with them.

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 14, 2022 13:20:34 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Once upon a time the big bookshops all had a lot of shelf-space given over to FF. You'd enter the shop and the eye was drawn immediately to the bright green spines. The shops knew to put them all in the same place whether the author was Jackson, Livingstone, or someone else who got their name printed on the inside - and by making them all 'SJ and IL presents' it didn't give booksellers a chance to cock things up by sticking the Andrew Chapman books next to Agatha Christie or John Christopher or whoever.

Have a look at the number of books written by ex-SAS man Chris Ryan.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Ryan
There's no way he's written all these, is there?
It's his name selling the books ... or perhaps even getting them printed and on the shelves in the first place.

This seems to be how things are.

I'm trying to remember, but I'm fairly sure Dave Morris's wife has written Chris Ryan books. Is he the Bravo Two Zero guy?

Maybe I'm thinking of Andy McNabb.

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 14, 2022 18:36:39 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

It's going a little bit off topic, this ghostwriting discussion...

'Off-topic?' Are you kidding? This thread opened with a silly joke about the rareness of Magehunter. I don't think it has ever been on-topic!

[sleepyscholar]

And in the spirit of my previous message, did I ever mention the story of when I met David Mitchell?

I mean the writer David Mitchell. He lived in Ledbury, Herefordshire, before moving to Ireland, and my parents lived in Ledbury. So me and my wife were there visiting, and would you know it, met a Japanese woman. She told my wife that there was another Japanese woman in the town, so why not get together. So we met up in a garden, these three Japanese women, two of them called Keiko, and three guys who, it turned out, had all harboured aspirations to be writers. Our host, whose family ran the local electrical shop, had worked on a movie script about Boudicca, only to be gazumped when the movie starring Alex Kingston came out. I had done a few FFs, and the third guy told us about the book he'd just had published, called Ghostwritten* and how he was working on a new one called number9dream.

At this stage, of course, Cloud Atlas (starring Hugh Grant, Tom Hanks etc) was many years away.

I have to say, Mitchell was a very nice guy. In the course of the conversation, it transpired that when he was younger, he read Fighting Fantasy. Did I say he was a nice guy? Turns out the miserable bastard had given up before any of my books were published!

Nevertheless I went on to read and enjoy much of his published output. I don't think it's hard to discern the influence of FF on his work (or at the very least, the reason why he enjoyed FF).

*See, there is a sort of continuity going on here.

[kieran]

Aug 15, 2022 11:19:41 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Nevertheless I went on to read and enjoy much of his published output.

Mitchell is an author I've been meaning to give a go for some time. Any suggestions on where to start?

[sleepyscholar]

Aug 15, 2022 14:23:41 GMT kieran said:

Aug 15, 2022 11:19:41 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Nevertheless I went on to read and enjoy much of his published output.

Mitchell is an author I've been meaning to give a go for some time. Any suggestions on where to start?

I don't see any reason not to start at the beginning with Ghostwritten. Alternatively watch the movie Cloud Atlas, and if that intrigues you, read the book of it. 

There is one potentially interesting approach, though. Black Swan Green is vaguely autobiographical, and is full of stuff that Brits of my (our?) generation will recognise, especially if they are from the Midlands (I'm from Brum, Mitchell is from Worcester). It's about a kid who has a stammer... like Mitchell himself, although you could have knocked me down with a feather when I discovered that. I spent an afternoon chatting with him and noticed nothing. But this book isn't really an introduction to the experimental/fantasy-laced style of most of his work.

[kieran]

Aug 15, 2022 15:45:16 GMT sleepyscholar said:

I don't see any reason not to start at the beginning with Ghostwritten.

Just looked it up and not only does it sound interesting, it's only £2.99 on Kindle - seems like a winner.

Alternatively watch the movie Cloud Atlas, and if that intrigues you, read the book of it.

And deny myself the pleasure of ranting about how they butchered the book?

There is one potentially interesting approach, though. Black Swan Green is vaguely autobiographical, and is full of stuff that Brits of my (our?) generation will recognise, especially if they are from the Midlands

Probably not an approach that will work for me unfortunately, having grown up on the other side of the Irish Sea and being a bit younger than Mitchell.

Thanks for the recommendations.

[andrewwright]

Ghostwritten and Cloud Atlas are awesome reads, as is Black Swan Green. I also really liked Slade House, which does name-check D&D. Got some of David Mitchell's others, but yet to read them. They're on the pile! :-)