Would you read more FF with fewer than 400 references?

[CharlesX]

It's interesting to me we've had quite a few published FF gamebooks with more than 400 references, many beloved by fans, yet TTBOMK only two that have had fewer than 400, Starship Traveller which had quite a bit fewer and was disappointing, and Freeway Fighter which had twenty fewer and was imho average (although it did spawn Freeway Fighter comic). More, it's pretty apparent some FF have filler to reach 400+ references, or the FF writers just don't know what they're doing.

   So, is this because FFs with fewer than 400 references just don't tend to work, or could they work if done well?

   You may vote for up to 3 answers.

   By the way this is with reference to published FF gamebooks - it's uncontroversial most of us would read more FF magazine games and some amateur FF.

   I believe there's a strong and understandable element of 'bang for your buck' which hasn't been helped by the FFs with fewer than 400 references being a bit undistinguished.

[paperexplorer]

400 is the standard. I think getting less now (or when Penguin considered dropping to 300) I'd feel short changed. Like when they reduce the size of your favourite chocolate bar but the price stays the same

[scouserob]

I would definitely read a new release with less than 400 paragraphs.
I think they could work well as a tighter adventure.

But would I like them to be that way...
No, I'm a man of tradition and think I hold too much value in the feeling of seeing that iconic phrase: Turn to 400.
(Despite loving Scorpion Swamp and the UK Steve Jackson's 400+ behemoths.)

Assuming the reason for the low paragraph count isn't deadline related then I'm guessing that the trick would be making the extra paragraphs you are using as filler, not seem like filler.

One way would be adding some Steve Jackson style dead-ends of doom with interesting to experience but ultimately futile decisions branches could fill a good few paragraphs if need be.

Creature of Havoc is full of them and they are all so fantastically memorable:

SPOILER: Click to show

All of these are in some loose sense filler, especially Dree and post Daramouss where your adventure will soon be over.
Just these three (dead end) set pieces add up to 63 references!

Can't understand Daramouss:
26 References.
Including great stuff such as the Black Elf and his Chaos Warrior loop and the mines.

Dree:
9 References.

Thugruff's Camp:
28 References.
I am cheating a little as there is a narrow path out of the camp alive, however it is still impossible to win if you visit the camp.

[terrysalt]

It depends how much fewer, I suppose. If it's 395 then I'd be wondering why it was missing a few references but it wouldn't really matter very much. If it's 150 then I'd be a lot less forgiving.

[sylas]

A good solid gamebook can be written in 100 sections or even fewer. If FF had already done several books with fewer sections it wouldn't seem out of place to have them now at say, 300 sections. However, since that was not the case, having fewer than 400 does make the reader feel short changed and that is never a good thing. 400 or more has been the norm for FF for long enough to not necessitate a change. The only way I can see it as being okay is to start with a spin off series like what Goldhawk did and begin right off the bat with fewer sections.

[CharlesX]

Aug 11, 2023 15:04:31 GMT sylas said:

A good solid gamebook can be written in 100 sections or even fewer. If FF had already done several books with fewer sections it wouldn't seem out of place to have them now at say, 300 sections. However, since that was not the case, having fewer than 400 does make the reader feel short changed and that is never a good thing. 400 or more has been the norm for FF for long enough to not necessitate a change. The only way I can see it as being okay is to start with a spin off series like what Goldhawk did and begin right off the bat with fewer sections.

Ironically Eye Of The Dragon in particular could have had fewer than 400 references once you take out several "let's kill the shopkeeper", and some obvious\cheap\arbitrary deaths (you open an unmarked door after passing another completely featureless left-right fork - the door closes behind you with a loud bang, you die in the same reference, not quite Sir Ian), but it seems Livingstone reckoned having 407 references was preferable to 399 for the reasons you and I have given. Freeway Fighter is an example of an FF having just a few short of 400 because everything was tight (a point petch makes in his ranking thread), where Gates Of Death had many more than 400 but is a bottom half FF, so on that basis I wouldn't say no about it if an FF were done well.

   I don't see as mission impossible say a scenario where Jackson wants another shot at a sci-fi gamebook, or Livingstone has a tale to tell that doesn't require 400 references, something like that, but the norm has moved from normally 400, sometimes more, sometimes fewer, to at least 400 and often more, just as you point out. 

[sylas]

Aug 11, 2023 15:43:23 GMT CharlesX said:

Aug 11, 2023 15:04:31 GMT sylas said:

A good solid gamebook can be written in 100 sections or even fewer. If FF had already done several books with fewer sections it wouldn't seem out of place to have them now at say, 300 sections. However, since that was not the case, having fewer than 400 does make the reader feel short changed and that is never a good thing. 400 or more has been the norm for FF for long enough to not necessitate a change. The only way I can see it as being okay is to start with a spin off series like what Goldhawk did and begin right off the bat with fewer sections.

Ironically Eye Of The Dragon in particular could have had fewer than 400 references once you take out several "let's kill the shopkeeper", and some obvious\cheap\arbitrary deaths (you open an unmarked door after passing another completely featureless left-right fork - the door closes behind you with a loud bang, you die in the same reference, not quite Sir Ian), but it seems Livingstone reckoned having 407 references was preferable to 399 for the reasons you and I have given. Freeway Fighter is an example of an FF having just a few short of 400 because everything was tight (a point petch makes in his ranking thread), where Gates Of Death had many more than 400 but is a bottom half FF, so on that basis I wouldn't say no about it if an FF were done well.

   I don't see as mission impossible say a scenario where Jackson wants another shot at a sci-fi gamebook, or Livingstone has a tale to tell that doesn't require 400 references, something like that, but the norm has moved from normally 400, sometimes more, sometimes fewer, to at least 400 and often more, just as you point out. 

I was more stating that because the FF series has gone on for so long with the majority of the books being at 400 sections, it would be kind of jarring if the series was suddenly not 400 sections. By that, I don't mean 399 or 402 sections. I mean if 300 sections (or an even lesser margin) became the new norm, that is what authors will aim for rather than aiming for 400 and ending up with 351 sections. While that shouldn't affect the quality of the writing, it will leave fans wondering where the rest of the book went. But otherwise, yeah, the number of sections doesn't determine if a book will be good, but for FF it might feel too much like an unnecessary break of tradition that fans have been familiar with.

[slloyd14]

Lone Wolf did fine with 350 sections.

Also, fewer sections does not mean fewer choices. Instead of all those east/west choices, you could simply have a map with section numbers on.

Instead of writing sections about sneaking past monsters, you could put it in all one section e.g.

The goblin is SKILL 5 STAMINA 6, but you can choose to sneak past it. If you do, test your luck. If you are lucky turn to X. Otherwise, you must fight it. If you win, turn to X.

This would work at the beginning of WOFM when sneaking past the goblin has the same result as killing the goblin.

[CharlesX]

Aug 11, 2023 19:52:39 GMT slloyd14 said:

Lone Wolf did fine with 350 sections.

Also, fewer sections does not mean fewer choices. Instead of all those east/west choices, you could simply have a map with section numbers on.

Instead of writing sections about sneaking past monsters, you could put it in all one section e.g.

The goblin is SKILL 5 STAMINA 6, but you can choose to sneak past it. If you do, test your luck. If you are lucky turn to X. Otherwise, you must fight it. If you win, turn to X.

This would work at the beginning of WOFM when sneaking past the goblin has the same result as killing the goblin.

Take Knights Of Doom, where in the same reference you are told you may test your luck to sneak past the Reptilian. Knights Of Doom is so tight it is an example where Puffin don't know what they're thinking asking for a 300 reference version of the gamebook.

[misomiso]

You need an option on the above survey to see if people would read ABOVE 400!

400 is too little!

It's always good to leave the audience wanting more, but I feel 400 is a bit too short; 460-540 seems a really good length to me as then you have enough space for a king of 'final confrontion' without shortchanging some of the earlier encounters. I felt for example that Shadow of the Giants could have had a longer final fight, as well as bit more depth in the opening encounters, or even in something like Creature of Havoc the ending / 2nd half felt quite rushed.

[a moderator]

Eye of the Dragon is proof that having more than 400 sections does not automatically make a gamebook better.

I rate quality of writing, playability, and engaging plot above number of references, and there are already too many gamebooks which have to resort to tedious padding and gratuitous section transitions just to hit 400 (or 200 for a mini-adventure, or 350 for a Lone Wolf). If the adventure would genuinely benefit from expanding upon some of the set pieces, I'm happy for it to have as many sections as it needs, but a book shouldn't have its reference count expanded unless it needs the extra sections.

[CharlesX]

Aug 14, 2023 11:22:13 GMT misomiso said:

You need an option on the above survey to see if people would read ABOVE 400!

400 is too little!

It's always good to leave the audience wanting more, but I feel 400 is a bit too short; 460-540 seems a really good length to me as then you have enough space for a king of 'final confrontion' without shortchanging some of the earlier encounters. I felt for example that Shadow of the Giants could have had a longer final fight, as well as bit more depth in the opening encounters, or even in something like Creature of Havoc the ending / 2nd half felt quite rushed.

I mentioned in my intro quite a few FF have been more than 400 - but to actually increase the 'standard' length to that, as opposed to just 5 above or something like Eye Of The Dragon, would probably put some demand on the author. And it definitely hasn't always ended well, because while Creature Of Havoc, Night Of The Necromancer, and Howl Of The Werewolf have benefitted from having more than 400 references, Eye Of The Dragon and Gates Of Death are pretty unarguably poor books. And you can tell with FF such as Rings Of Kether, Midnight Rogue and Deathmoor (I'm absolutely not knocking their overall quality) a number of their references just flatly telling you tests or outcomes, or filler, and could be stripped away. In truth FF such as Eye Of The Dragon and Sky Lord (400 references) could have fewer references than 400 and still suck, albeit perhaps less, as well.

   If you feel strongly you could always set up a sister thread offering a 450+ option or something, but I wouldn't vote for it.

[kieran]

Aug 14, 2023 12:36:33 GMT CharlesX said:

And you can tell with FF such as Rings Of Kether, Midnight Rogue and Deathmoor (I'm absolutely not knocking their overall quality) a number of their references just flatly telling you tests or outcomes, or filler, and could be stripped away.

I agree with filler, but I quite like test outcomes being in a separate section. I imagine those authors who stuck everything in one section did so because they were hampered by the 400 limit.

[a moderator]

As a writer I've had issues in both directions with section number targets.

Back in the 1980s I plotted out and partially wrote a not-very-good superhero/sci-fi gamebook called something like Countdown to Chaos. One of its biggest flaws was that I threw in a gratuitous maze just before the climax to bring the number of references up to 400.

A little over a decade ago, when I started work on Return to the Icefinger Mountains, it was going to be 200 sections long. As I developed it, the total went up to 250. And then to 275. And I still wound up including the outcomes of a few rolls in the same sections as those rolls in order to be able to fit everything in.

Ideally, a gamebook should be as long as it needs to be. There's something aesthetically pleasing about round numbers, but if 371 references is what it takes to include everything that needs including (including alternative routes, false trails and entertaining Instant Deaths), I'd rather have the book end on section 371 than have the author clutter the adventure with redundant encounters and arbitrary junctions and pointless rooms and useless items and uninspired fatalities just to bulk it up to 400 or 460 or 500 or whatever.

[trialmaster]

I think test outcomes are definitely better on a separate reference otherwise no suspense is created. Part of the fun is turning to a new reference to see what happens rather than just seeing the outcomes set out in front of you.

[CharlesX]

Aug 14, 2023 14:00:20 GMT kieran said:

Aug 14, 2023 12:36:33 GMT CharlesX said:

And you can tell with FF such as Rings Of Kether, Midnight Rogue and Deathmoor (I'm absolutely not knocking their overall quality) a number of their references just flatly telling you tests or outcomes, or filler, and could be stripped away.

I agree with filler, but I quite like test outcomes being in a separate section. I imagine those authors who stuck everything in one section did so because they were hampered by the 400 limit.

My intended point (not made very well) was more those gamebooks which tell you the same outcome, without new tests or dice and with just a few sentences, over several references; which would have to fall under filler.

   Your last sentence particularly reminds me of Citadel Of Chaos, where Ganjees can kill you in a long drawn-out death on the same reference if you fail a test your luck, or where you die on the same reference when you don't know the combination lock. Particularly in the latter case, I thought it was kind of creepy and resonating that you can die that way (perhaps ironically, it only seems weird in Eye Of The Dragon where you have a separate long reference you try anyway if you don't have the two gems). But that's just one or two - Luke Sharp for example very much grates.

   If this sounds like a defence of the 400 references, it isn't, because I prefer the longer adventures, I'm just in two minds.

[terrysalt]

Aug 14, 2023 16:14:34 GMT a moderator said:

As a writer I've had issues in both directions with section number targets.

Back in the 1980s I plotted out and partially wrote a not-very-good superhero/sci-fi gamebook called something like Countdown to Chaos. One of its biggest flaws was that I threw in a gratuitous maze just before the climax to bring the number of references up to 400.

A little over a decade ago, when I started work on Return to the Icefinger Mountains, it was going to be 200 sections long. As I developed it, the total went up to 250. And then to 275. And I still wound up including the outcomes of a few rolls in the same sections as those rolls in order to be able to fit everything in.

Ideally, a gamebook should be as long as it needs to be. There's something aesthetically pleasing about round numbers, but if 371 references is what it takes to include everything that needs including (including alternative routes, false trails and entertaining Instant Deaths), I'd rather have the book end on section 371 than have the author clutter the adventure with redundant encounters and arbitrary junctions and pointless rooms and useless items and uninspired fatalities just to bulk it up to 400 or 460 or 500 or whatever.

If you end up with 371, then you just add 29 "If you're reading this, you must have cheated" sections, problem solved!

[bloodbeasthandler]

Aug 11, 2023 19:52:39 GMT slloyd14 said:

Lone Wolf did fine with 350 sections.

I really do love the LW books but I feel that there could be a lack of choice in a lot of them. 
If anything LW could have done with more paragraphs, with more real choices, and things happening as a result of those choices. 

Too many paras taken up with 'do you have discipline x and are at level y? If so go to 123' 
And the punishment for not having the discipline or item was sometimes a trifling ENDURANCE points loss but then an immediate return to the main path again. 

In fact I would have preferred to see a more genuine divergence from the main paths. 
A LW book to me feels like it has less than 350 references. 

 

[a moderator]

Aug 20, 2023 12:43:19 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Aug 11, 2023 19:52:39 GMT slloyd14 said:

Lone Wolf did fine with 350 sections.

I really do love the LW books but I feel that there could be a lack of choice in a lot of them. 
If anything LW could have done with more paragraphs, with more real choices, and things happening as a result of those choices. 

Would more paragraphs have meant more choices? Or just more of those tedious chains of

37
Half a page of description.
Turn to 54.

54
A page of waffle.
Turn to 162.

162
Exposition, exposition and more exposition.
Turn to 257.

257
More waffle with no sign of a decision.
Turn to 79.

79
More tedium, and then! Something horrifies you, but to maintain suspense I'm not telling you what it is until you...
Turn to 304.

304
Evil baddies do something evilly evil. If you have what is currently the most powerful version of the 'stop enemies from melting your brain with mind power' discipline...

[Minor bifurcation involving slight Endurance loss]
[Fight that's tougher if you have the Sommerswerd because we hates the long-standing readerses]
[And back to a string of sections that only lead to one other section]

[bloodbeasthandler]

Aug 20, 2023 13:34:10 GMT a moderator said:

Aug 20, 2023 12:43:19 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

I really do love the LW books but I feel that there could be a lack of choice in a lot of them. 
If anything LW could have done with more paragraphs, with more real choices, and things happening as a result of those choices. 

Would more paragraphs have meant more choices? Or just more of those tedious chains of

37
Half a page of description.
Turn to 54.

54
A page of waffle.
Turn to 162.

162
Exposition, exposition and more exposition.
Turn to 257.

257
More waffle with no sign of a decision.
Turn to 79.

79
More tedium, and then! Something horrifies you, but to maintain suspense I'm not telling you what it is until you...
Turn to 304.

304
Evil baddies do something evilly evil. If you have what is currently the most powerful version of the 'stop enemies from melting your brain with mind power' discipline...

[Minor bifurcation involving slight Endurance loss]
[Fight that's tougher if you have the Sommerswerd because we hates the long-standing readerses]
[And back to a string of sections that only lead to one other section]

In practice, yes, that is what would have happened. 

 

[misomiso]

Aug 20, 2023 13:45:22 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Aug 20, 2023 13:34:10 GMT a moderator said:

Would more paragraphs have meant more choices? Or just more of those tedious chains of

In practice, yes, that is what would have happened. 

 

I think it would have depended on the writer.  Yes more references could just mean more filler, or it could have meant a deeper story with more choices, side lines, encounters etc. 

Lone Wolf definately has a formula though that the writer followed.

[paperexplorer]

I was thinking about this question again recently as I pondered Ian's works. As Ian grew, he started to get more expansive in the quests, laying out epic journeys while staying within the refines of 400 references. I just wonder if Ian with more references at hand would make more paths, thus more areas to explore(and go wrong), or would he just make a longer linear story

[roidhun]

Personally, I don't obsess over the paragraph count, but I definitely feel that on the whole it's usually a case of "the more, the merrier". I felt decidedly cheated that The Hunger Of Sejanoz ran to only 300 paragraphs and I've often wondered just how different it might have been if Red Fox had been contractually obligated to publish the last four books Joe Dever had planned and he hadn't had to try to wrap things up as neatly as possible even at a cost of deleting 50 paragraphs worth of text.

Edit:
And it was always wince-inducingly unconvincing just how much average stats, for even the most bog-standard opponents like packs of Giaks or highway robbers, crept up to match your own increased stats in later books to try to stop most encounters prior to confronting the "final boss" turning into complete cakewalks. Why not just make Lone Wolf or his unnamed protege fight two or three times as many opponents, with their stats still in proportion with those of comparably low-grade opponents from the earlier books?

[CharlesX]

Nov 24, 2023 2:45:22 GMT roidhun said:

Personally, I don't obsess over the paragraph count, but I definitely feel that on the whole it's usually a case of "the more, the merrier".

That's definitely an interesting point. Growing up I was into Choose Your Own Adventure and Golden Dragon, particularly the former isn't so popular here. Like Endless Quest, as well, later Choose Your Own Adventure could often have pages after pages after pages after pages without choice, not unlike the way Greenspine describes, "You open the door to go into your office. Turn to 6. Your office boss greets you and tells you he's a hard day as you put your coat up. Turn to 40. He speaks, turn to 100, he continues, turn to 110, he continues more, turn to 108", and more and more. You don't just open the office folder, you're "alarmed by the contents" in one reference, then "think about what this means", then "remember something that previously happened to you" get the picture. Not to mention stupid options about "do you want to give up", "do you help your friends or leave both them and the bad guy who wants to take over the world".

   My point being perhaps a negative one, earlier Choose Your Own Adventure could be fun because they were compact and told a fantastic story briefly even if wasn't necessarily up there with Hamlet. So I wouldn't say no to a Junior FF that were under 400 references, but with FF struggling to break mainstream such a spin-off almost certainly couldn't happen these days. My impression is Adventures Of Goldhawk is OK at best, while I've heard artwork and paper are good Sir Ian possibly isn't who I'd task with writing FF for younger people.

   Yes, I'd probably rather an FF were longer than 400 than shorter. I still think it'd be wonderful if an FF or any gamebook could tell its story in fewer than 400 references.

  

[bloodbeasthandler]

Nov 24, 2023 2:45:22 GMT roidhun said:

And it was always wince-inducingly unconvincing just how much average stats, for even the most bog-standard opponents like packs of Giaks or highway robbers, crept up to match your own increased stats in later books to try to stop most encounters prior to confronting the "final boss" turning into complete cakewalks. Why not just make Lone Wolf or his unnamed protege fight two or three times as many opponents, with their stats still in proportion with those of comparably low-grade opponents from the earlier books?

One of the best (worst?) examples I can remember of this is from Dawn of the Dragons para 311

Eldenoran Thug (drunk): COMBAT SKILL 34 ENDURANCE 34

He has double the combat skill of a trained Drakkar warrior from the first few books. Talk about grade inflation!

[Per]

He's only Combat Skill 8 when not drunk.

[Pete Byrdie]

Nov 24, 2023 2:20:51 GMT paperexplorer said:

I was thinking about this question again recently as I pondered Ian's works. As Ian grew, he started to get more expansive in the quests, laying out epic journeys while staying within the refines of 400 references. I just wonder if Ian with more references at hand would make more paths, thus more areas to explore(and go wrong), or would he just make a longer linear story

I think, as well as making a more expansive story in fewer references, a linear story is probably more easily planned. All you need to do is plan the true path, and then a few that loop straight back or end in dead ends. If you're particularly proud of some of your ideas you don't have to worry about resisting the temptation to put them all on the optimal path, which I know is a thing, because even the wrong paths are never far from the optimal path. I'd guess that, once you're used to writing a gamebook that way, it's probably difficult to write differently.

EDIT We've seen many approaches to designing gamebooks over the years. In the FF series, I'd have liked to have seen more along the lines of Scorpion Swamp. But that kind of approach is necessarily very heavy on references/sections/paragraphs. The Way of the Tiger combat system is quite interesting and varied, but with several paragraphs per combat, it's also fairly hungry for more paragraphs. I'd be fine playing a book with fewer paragraphs, but chances are, if someone's going to really experiment with the format, the more paragraphs, the better.