roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78 
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 20, 2023 5:06:47 GMT
The main problem with Appointment with F.E.A.R., as I see it, is that the stats of your character, the Silver Crusader, are too close to human-normal levels of Skill and Stamina for him/her to really deserve to be called a superhero at all. Not to mention that he/she isn't allowed to kill people.
How about this for an attempt at doing better?
- - - - - -
THE GOLDEN CHAMPION
Your Real Name = Frederick Bloggs/Frederica Bloggs
Skill = 15
Stamina = 30
Luck = 12
Willpower = 15
Resolve = 12
Presence = 12
Faith = 12
Honour = 12
You inflict a loss of 3 Stamina points on an enemy every time you hit him or her during unarmed combat.
You can kill whoever you like deal out lethal punishment to anyone you consider deserving of it, as long as they've previously killed or endangered the life of someone else this is in retribution for their having willfully and deliberately killed or endangered the life of someone else who counts as an innocent person. You're judge, jury and executioner.
Your Superpowers =
Superstrength. This power is self-explanatory.
Supertoughness. Allows you to automatically reduce all Stamina point losses you sustain due to injury or going without food by half, rounding up.
Superhealing. Can automatically restore 1 Stamina point previously lost due to injury for every one paragraph turned to while not currently engaged in combat. Can automatically restore 1 Skill point previously lost due to injury for every two paragraphs turned to while not currently engaged in combat.
Superspeed. You can run - and move in any other way - twice as fast as a normal person and can therefore accomplish any manual task in half the time it would take him or her. You therefore automatically get to make 2 seperate attacks per Attack Round against any single opponent who does not also possess this power. You also therefore automatically get to make a single attack per Attack Round against each of any two opponents who both attack you simultaneously, as long as neither of these opponents also possesses this power.
Supervision. You can see in infrared and ultraviolet. This means that you can see in the dark. You can also see beings and objects cloaked by any kind of invisiblity or illusion effect (technological or magical) only intended to be effective against normal vision that relies on visible light. This does not help you when you are dealing with beings and objects that actually physically reshape themseves in order to conceal their true nature.
Energy Blast. You can fire a blast of energy resembling a lightning bolt from your hand. This automatically either stuns or kills any opponent you hit with it, unless they possess some kind of inherent immunity or resistance to energy-based attacks. Drains 2 from your Stamina if used only to stun an opponent, but drains 4 from your Stamina if used to kill an opponent. The Stamina lost in this way can be recovered through the use of Superhealing as described above, but this power should still be used sparingly.
Flight. This power is also self-explanatory. While flying you can move approximately twice as fast (and cover approximately twice as much distance) as you can while running at Superspeed. It's therefore normally automatically the best way to get from Point A to Point B, but it will also attract a great deal of attention if you are seen using it. Therefore, it may sometimes be better for you to refrain from using this abilty in order to conceal the fact that you possess it. (It's always a good idea to keep something in reserve.)
Your Equipment =
Unobtainium Quarterstaff. Can absorb 30 Damage Points before finally shattering and becoming useless. (It requires something capable of inflicting a loss of at least 20 Stamina on you to inflict even 1 Damage Point on this item.) Inflicts a loss of 4 Stamina on an enemy while being used in combat by you, or 3 Stamina while being used by anybody else.
2 Unobtanium Wrist Bracers. Each can absorb 30 Damage Points before finally shattering and becoming useless. (It requires something capable of inflicting a loss of at least 20 Stamina on you to inflict even 1 Damage Point on one of these items.) Each can function like a Vambrace (a medieval sleeve-shield) when used to block incoming blows and small projectiles.
Bulletproof Costume. Made of a thin, form-fitting fabric that offers the wearer about the same amount of protection from blades and bullets as would a suit of real-world Kevlar. Also offers the wearer about the same amount of fire-resistance as would an old-fashioned asbestos suit. You can conceal it beneath normal clothing.
- - - - - -
Now, the question is, what could really challenge a character this powerful? Apart from the Night Dragon, anyway?
Edit:
Whoa! What was I thinking? The Titanium Cyborg had Skill 18 and Stamina 20! He'd certainly be a worthy foe.
|
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 20, 2023 8:37:36 GMT
While this seems well-written it would mean FF readers (primary audience: 10-year-olds) would be wading through lots of pages of instructions before starting their game. As you hint at for me its more of a problem most enemies you face have no special powers - they are animals, henchmen, 2-bit villains rather than terrifying Lex Luthors. But if they were entirely that way, that would seem equally (or more) unrealistic. Appointment with F. E.A. R. was an average, even filler gamebook which I don't see working as a big RPG-esque project (whether Starship Traveller would have worked better with more time and length, I don't know).
|
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 10:25:41 GMT
(whether Starship Traveller would have worked better with more time and length, I don't know)
Regardless of time or length, Starship Traveller is inherently more likely to appeal to somebody who thinks that Star Trek: The Original Series is the greatest thing since sliced bread than to somebody who thinks it's quite astonishingly overrated. I fall into the latter category. |
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 21, 2023 13:58:56 GMT
You can kill whoever you like, as long as they've previously killed or endangered the life of someone else who counts as an innocent person. You're judge, jury and executioner. Like I believe I mentioned before FF has an audience of kids and young teens like Marvel films, which is partly why superhero films often have villains slip on a banana skin on the top of a skyscraper rather than have them personally do away with bad guys. As Tolkien put it "Many deserve death. Can you give it to them?". And I don't think either North Korea or America have it right, at least in fiction superheroes shouldn't be killing people even if they're monsters. I don't think assassinating Hitler (or Davros) would have worked but that is a side point. This sort of reminds me when I was 12 or something and wrote an amateur FF about superheroes, and included a rapist and graphic death scenes. But my gran noticed me writing and wanted to play my game! I crossed out entire pieces rewrote them as different encounters and outcomes.
|
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 14:32:06 GMT
You can kill whoever you like, as long as they've previously killed or endangered the life of someone else who counts as an innocent person. You're judge, jury and executioner. Like I believe I mentioned before FF has an audience of kids and young teens like Marvel films, which is partly why superhero films often have villains slip on a banana skin on the top of a skyscraper rather than have them personally do away with bad guys. As Tolkien put it "Many deserve death. Can you give it to them?". And I don't think either North Korea or America have it right, at least in fiction superheroes shouldn't be killing people even if they're monsters. I don't think assassinating Hitler (or Davros) would have worked but that is a side point. This sort of reminds me when I was 12 or something and wrote an amateur FF about superheroes, and included a rapist and graphic death scenes. But my gran noticed me writing and wanted to play my game! I crossed out entire pieces rewrote them as different encounters and outcomes.
I've been expecting somebody to make this point. I fully respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it. As I see it, every time Batman lets the Joker live and be hauled off to Arkham Asylum instead of executing him, he's signing the death warrant of more innocent people who will be murdered when the madman escapes. Every time Superman lets Lex Luthor live, every time the Fantastic Four let Doctor Doom live, every time any superhero spares the life of any supervillain who can't be contained by a conventional prison or mental institution and who has no regard for human life, they're condemning more innocent people to death when they've committed no crime. As far as I'm concerned, superheroes don't have the moral right to not kill supervillains who can't be stopped any other way. General attitudes in superhero comic book/movie fandom seem to be moving in that direction - Thor decapitated Thanos in the last Avengers movie, remember. And as for the idea that kids in Britain will be more disturbed by this kind of thing than kids in the United States because we don't have the death penalty in our legal code - I don't buy it. We are the country that created Judge Dredd, after all. For the record, I condemn the death penalty as nothing but judicial murder in the real world. Ordinary murderers usually can be safely contained by a prison or mental institution. |
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Nov 21, 2023 15:39:36 GMT
You can kill whoever you like, as long as they've previously killed or endangered the life of someone else who counts as an innocent person. You're judge, jury and executioner. The part I've underlined is way too vague. Say a car manufacturer covers up a potentially lethal fault in their newest model. Does that mean that anybody who sells one of those cars, despite having no idea of the danger, is worthy of death? They have, after all, endangered the lives of their customers. According to some of the 'tolerant' people in an online gaming community of which I am no longer a member, just not belonging to certain 'marginalised' groups poses a direct threat to the lives of members of said groups. If your 'hero' were to share these posters' views, they would feel justified in killing you, me, most if not all of the other members of this forum, and a couple of billion other people just for the crime of existing. |
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 15:57:42 GMT
You can kill whoever you like, as long as they've previously killed or endangered the life of someone else who counts as an innocent person. You're judge, jury and executioner. The part I've underlined is way too vague. Say a car manufacturer covers up a potentially lethal fault in their newest model. Does that mean that anybody who sells one of those cars, despite having no idea of the danger, is worthy of death? They have, after all, endangered the lives of their customers. According to some of the 'tolerant' people in an online gaming community of which I am no longer a member, just not belonging to certain 'marginalised' groups poses a direct threat to the lives of members of said groups. If your 'hero' were to share these posters' views, they would feel justified in killing you, me, most if not all of the other members of this forum, and a couple of billion other people just for the crime of existing. Let's put it this way: If the Golden Champion decided that the entire Board of Directors of the Amalgamated Automobile Corporation deserved to die for covering up the potentially lethal fault and successfully destroying all the evidence that could have proved their guilt in a court of law, that would be perfectly legitimate if the psychology of the character was being modeled on that of Frank "The Punisher" Castle. Obviously ordinary employees of the company who knew nothing of the cover-up wouldn't be held responsible in the same way. Nor showroom dealers who were equally ignorant. As for the kind of people you seem to be describing... life imitating art. Magneto at his most unhinged felt much the same way about the entire human race over half a century ago. If you weren't a mutant, you had to be enslaved or die to prevent you enslaving or murdering the people who were. |
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 21, 2023 16:22:16 GMT
The part I've underlined is way too vague. Say a car manufacturer covers up a potentially lethal fault in their newest model. Does that mean that anybody who sells one of those cars, despite having no idea of the danger, is worthy of death? They have, after all, endangered the lives of their customers. According to some of the 'tolerant' people in an online gaming community of which I am no longer a member, just not belonging to certain 'marginalised' groups poses a direct threat to the lives of members of said groups. If your 'hero' were to share these posters' views, they would feel justified in killing you, me, most if not all of the other members of this forum, and a couple of billion other people just for the crime of existing. Let's put it this way: If the Golden Champion decided that the entire Board of Directors of the Amalgamated Automobile Corporation deserved to die for covering up the potentially lethal fault and successfully destroying all the evidence that could have proved their guilt in a court of law, that would be perfectly legitimate if the psychology of the character was being modeled on that of Frank "The Punisher" Castle. Obviously ordinary employees of the company who knew nothing of the cover-up wouldn't be held responsible in the same way. Nor showroom dealers who were equally ignorant. As for the kind of people you seem to be describing... life imitating art. Magneto at his most unhinged felt much the same way about the entire human race over half a century ago. If you weren't a mutant, you had to be enslaved or die to prevent you enslaving or murdering the people who were. I just don't like the concept "you can kill whoever you like" (perhaps that could be moderated). I suspect a decisive majority of people would say that if there were overwhelming evidence someone had killed a number of people they would deserve death, but that's not something I'd enjoy playing. While its OK for the Judge Dredd universe, I'd feel more like a vigilante or lynch mob (or maybe antihero) than hero. Before superheroes were big in pop culture westerns were big, I would say the Golden Champion's concept of justice was wild west. Like I said before I reckon it's actually a question about whether it works as well as whether its ethical - if Hitler or Stalin or Jack The Ripper were assassinated there's no guarantee someone worse would take their place (like the revenge conflict going on at the moment). I'd also like to say I don't want this to become an argument and like Roidhun I respect his view even if I may not agree 100%.
|
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Nov 21, 2023 16:36:19 GMT
Replacing 'previously' with 'wilfully' or 'maliciously' or something along those lines would move your character concept a little way from 'vigilante psychopath' towards 'superhero'.
|
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 16:39:25 GMT
Replacing 'previously' with 'wilfully' or 'maliciously' or something along those lines would move your character concept a little way from 'vigilante psychopath' towards 'superhero'. Can do! |
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 21, 2023 17:04:49 GMT
As I see it, every time Batman lets the Joker live and be hauled off to Arkham Asylum instead of executing him, he's signing the death warrant of more innocent people who will be murdered when the madman escapes. Every time Superman lets Lex Luthor live, every time the Fantastic Four let Doctor Doom live, every time any superhero spares the life of any supervillain who can't be contained by a conventional prison or mental institution and who has no regard for human life, they're condemning more innocent people to death when they've committed no crime. Yes, i've wondered about that aspect of the superhero genre too. As far as I'm concerned, superheroes don't have the moral right to not kill supervillains who can't be stopped any other way. Strongly put! Does this apply to conscientious objectors when their country or tribe is engaged in a war for survival? In any case, the whole thing is an interesting moral dilemma, isn't it? And one that could well be explored in a gamebook written more with adults in mind as being the target audience. |
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 17:27:49 GMT
As I see it, every time Batman lets the Joker live and be hauled off to Arkham Asylum instead of executing him, he's signing the death warrant of more innocent people who will be murdered when the madman escapes. Every time Superman lets Lex Luthor live, every time the Fantastic Four let Doctor Doom live, every time any superhero spares the life of any supervillain who can't be contained by a conventional prison or mental institution and who has no regard for human life, they're condemning more innocent people to death when they've committed no crime. Yes, i've wondered about that aspect of the superhero genre too. As far as I'm concerned, superheroes don't have the moral right to not kill supervillains who can't be stopped any other way. Strongly put! Does this apply to conscientious objectors when their country or tribe is engaged in a war for survival? In any case, the whole thing is an interesting moral dilemma, isn't it? And one that could well be explored in a gamebook written more with adults in mind as being the target audience. If we take World War I as an example, the majority of "conchies" were willing to do life-threatening things like seeking to rescue wounded men under enemy fire. They just wouldn't carry a gun and fire it. Only a hard core of ultra-pacifists refused to support the war effort in any way and were jailed for it. That contrasts sharply with the attitude of the hyper-pacifists typified by somebody like Aldous Huxley in the run-up to World War II. He would probably have stood by and done nothing while a madman axe-murdered a baby even if all he had to do to save the life of the baby was to pick up a loaded shotgun conveniently lying nearby and shoot the madman dead. His fanatical obsession with not having to endure the guilt of taking the life of another human being with his own lily-white hands apparently meant more to him than human life itself. (This is a pretty extreme interpretation of his personality, yes. But I think it's justified considering that he believed Britain should passively submit to German conquest rather than do anything as horrid and beastly as use armed force to defend itself.) And yes, the Golden Champion might be more suitable as the player character of a gamebook aimed at readers aged in their older teens and up. |
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 21, 2023 18:42:38 GMT
If we take World War I as an example, the majority of "conchies" were willing to do life-threatening things like seeking to rescue wounded men under enemy fire. They just wouldn't carry a gun and fire it. Only a hard core of ultra-pacifists refused to support the war effort in any way and were jailed for it. That contrasts sharply with the attitude of the hyper-pacifists typified by somebody like Aldous Huxley in the run-up to World War II. He would probably have stood by and done nothing while a madman axe-murdered a baby even if all he had to do to save the life of the baby was to pick up a loaded shotgun conveniently lying nearby and shoot the madman dead. His fanatical obsession with not having to endure the guilt of taking the life of another human being with his own lily-white hands apparently meant more to him than human life itself. (This is a pretty extreme interpretation of his personality, yes. But I think it's justified considering that he believed Britain should passively submit to German conquest rather than do anything as horrid and beastly as use armed force to defend itself.) And yes, the Golden Champion might be more suitable as the player character of a gamebook aimed at readers aged in their older teens and up. Whether conscientious objectors were truthfully heroes (like Hollywood's Hacksaw Ridge) I don't know. Aldous Huxley was was indeed an intellectual, quite possibly an arrogant one, but there were also those who opposed war for religious or ethical reasons which others may reject or laugh at but remain (imo) in the no man's land of legitimacy. Aldous Huxley said and argued for a lot of things but like Oscar Wilde he would often say things more to make a point (or negatively, because he was sensation-seeking) than because he deeply believed those things.
|
|
roidhun
Wanderer
Ironic, self-deprecating nerd and geek extraordinnaire.
Posts: 78
Favourite Gamebook Series: The Legends of Skyfall (Yes, really!)
|
Post by roidhun on Nov 21, 2023 19:25:25 GMT
If somebody says something they don't really believe, they really can't blame anybody but themselves if other people assume they do believe it and judge them accordingly.
|
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Feb 9, 2024 12:16:24 GMT
(whether Starship Traveller would have worked better with more time and length, I don't know)
Regardless of time or length, Starship Traveller is inherently more likely to appeal to somebody who thinks that Star Trek: The Original Series is the greatest thing since sliced bread than to somebody who thinks it's quite astonishingly overrated. I fall into the latter category. I've been watching the latest Star Trek 'Strange New Worlds' and I can't help but relate to a mate who said "Star Trek is just bunch of middle-class Americans", perhaps because Gene Roddenberry was a humanist there was a lot of episodes with deities, high morals and 'primitive cultures who became more advanced after meeting space explorers' (coincidentally with American accents like Scott Bakula). Even if that was more how they did things then. Instead of endless attempts to redo Star Trek and Lost In Space I'd rather they came up with original concepts, that's where really good sci-fi is at.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,463
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Feb 9, 2024 13:56:15 GMT
Instead of endless attempts to redo Star Trek and Lost In Space I'd rather they came up with original concepts, that's where really good sci-fi is at. The high budget of sci-fi productions makes studios nervous about investing in anything that's not an established brand. |
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Feb 9, 2024 14:21:20 GMT
Instead of endless attempts to redo Star Trek and Lost In Space I'd rather they came up with original concepts, that's where really good sci-fi is at. The high budget of sci-fi productions makes studios nervous about investing in anything that's not an established brand. Or bother with established brands such as Doctor Who (only now getting the budget it deserves on Disney+) and Blakes's Seven. Maybe they will take more risks when this whole Superhero\villain bubble bursts (already on its way out imho) instead of Batman versus Superman versus Suicide Squad etc - because there's only so far you can wring established brands.
|
|
|
|
Post by vastariner on Feb 10, 2024 12:30:17 GMT
The problem with sci-fi as a gamebook is that a hard sci-fi gamebook would be, well, Skylord. It would be so far from rational human experience that it would be incomprehensible. The tech would be so advanced that the thinking around it would be like explaining rice pudding to a deep-sea cucumber. So it has to skeuomorph into something a reader can latch onto.
Which in turn leans on tropes of things that have already happened - and of course Star Trek et al rely on those too. Look at the Odyssey, that has the Klingons (Polyphemos), the Q (Olympia), Uhura (Calypso), mysterious worlds with incomprehensible names inhabited by bizarre inhabitants (Aeaea, Lotus-eaters) and the redshirts (his entire crew). It's even a twice-five year mission...
|
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Feb 10, 2024 12:48:02 GMT
The problem with sci-fi as a gamebook is that a hard sci-fi gamebook would be, well, Skylord. It would be so far from rational human experience that it would be incomprehensible. The tech would be so advanced that the thinking around it would be like explaining rice pudding to a deep-sea cucumber. So it has to skeuomorph into something a reader can latch onto. Which in turn leans on tropes of things that have already happened - and of course Star Trek et al rely on those too. Look at the Odyssey, that has the Klingons (Polyphemos), the Q (Olympia), Uhura (Calypso), mysterious worlds with incomprehensible names inhabited by bizarre inhabitants (Aeaea, Lotus-eaters) and the redshirts (his entire crew). It's even a twice-five year mission... Things like Star Wars and Dune basically make their future recognisable by saying they are so far in the future they lapse into the past for reasons they aren't entirely lgical (and perhaps don't have to be). Other alternatives include just using tech as though it were magic (favourites of Doctor Who and Lost In Space) or setting SF in the near future, I don't see Humans exploring other galaxies in the next few hundred years but I do see things like AI, genetic engineering and terraforming becoming possible. Quite frankly I think Gene Roddenberry and Irwin Allen could be big kids who were fortunate other people were as into their gaming as they were.
|
|
