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Post by CharlesX on Dec 19, 2023 19:24:26 GMT
There have definitely been many great gamebooks, if not above criticism (e.g. FF can be too difficult, Lone Wolf perhaps isn't long enough) but there have been lots of bad gamebooks as well. Back in the '80s gamebooks were actually popular and that meant many gamebooks were published that had very bad writing, incoherence, were tedious rather than thrilling, the author didn't work on etc.
Among CYOA War With The Evil Power Master was heavily juvenile and had a lot of shouting, abrupt deaths and was a perfect example of how below-average CYOA could be. The Lost Jewels Of Nabooti was very boring. I read several Make Your Own Adventure with Doctor Who and the series had awful writing (patronising and childish), poor loyalty to the series, was bland and unexciting, and was disappointing. I think there wasn't one book in the series that was average or better quality. Real Life gamebooks I think has one or two good entries, but is mostly too military and technical, and can get difficulty wrong. Endless Quest like CYOA is a variable series with some very bad entries as well as some very good. Some are just very uninspired and others are boring with too many obvious choices and not enough decision and action. I have not read Blood Of The Zombies but in spite of some redeeming features I reckon Gates Of Death is one of the worst gamebooks of any series. It is broken, error-ridden, not fun to 'play', has neither enough action nor entertainment (its attempts at entertainment do not make me laugh, like an unfunny Fast Show skit) and the art is rubbish, as well.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 20, 2023 18:26:41 GMT
With very few exceptions, I was pretty disappointed by CYOA from the start. Bear in mind my first example of any of these sorts of books was Deathtrap Dungeon so my expectations were high.
CYOA was too many random happenings, disjointed stories and ideas, too short, and aimed at too young an age group.
I thought they were low-effort affairs - formulaic and churned out like they were coming out of a sausage machine.
Did the series ever 'mature'? Or did it just stay where it was - was book 100 more or less the same thing as book 1?
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 20, 2023 20:24:43 GMT
As you say bloodbeasthandler there were a very few really good CYOA. I've a strong feeling many people would read CYOA much more for entertainment value than anything intellectual, because some (Edward Packard in particular) could definitely write out-there stories, which people might read knowing the literary quality was objectively well below-average. His UFO CYOA being one example (either, really). Later CYOA possibly had better art than early CYOA, I'm not sure. But in many other respects it wasn't as good (and yeah, the bar wasn't exactly great to begin with), their best writers used up some of their best concepts in the first few CYOA. Later CYOA often had fewer choices and worse writing (I agree very much about the 'factory-made feel' of some CYOA), with a lot of sports-based CYOA which I never bought because they sounded dull. Having said that I've heard there are some good later CYOA, perhaps where writers have matured a little - the series could be relatively strong at new concepts.
There was an attempt to make longer Choose Your Own Adventure (Super Choose Your Own Adventure) which has its own thread ( fightingfantazine.proboards.com/thread/1222/choose-own-super-adventure) and having read the two of them the first is well-written, imho better than any CYOA, the second so-so and forgettable. The series was not commercially successful, although I heard SCYOA1 has made it onto Apps. I've only heard pretty bad things about 2000s revived CYOA, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers won't turn it around as FF has but I really think CYOA has had its day. It wasn't just juvenile, or badly-written and disjointed, it was also cheesy, patronising, inappropriate, ridiculous, boring, overrated and violent. I say those things as a fan, and someone who thinks some CYOA are wonderful.
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Post by slloyd14 on Dec 21, 2023 7:36:00 GMT
As you say bloodbeasthandler there were a very few really good CYOA. I've a strong feeling many people would read CYOA much more for entertainment value than anything intellectual, because some (Edward Packard in particular) could definitely write out-there stories, which people might read knowing the literary quality was objectively well below-average. His UFO CYOA being one example (either, really). Later CYOA possibly had better art than early CYOA, I'm not sure. But in many other respects it wasn't as good (and yeah, the bar wasn't exactly great to begin with), their best writers used up some of their best concepts in the first few CYOA. Later CYOA often had fewer choices and worse writing (I agree very much about the 'factory-made feel' of some CYOA), with a lot of sports-based CYOA which I never bought because they sounded dull. Having said that I've heard there are some good later CYOA, perhaps where writers have matured a little - the series could be relatively strong at new concepts.
There was an attempt to make longer Choose Your Own Adventure (Super Choose Your Own Adventure) which has its own thread ( fightingfantazine.proboards.com/thread/1222/choose-own-super-adventure) and having read the two of them the first is well-written, imho better than any CYOA, the second so-so and forgettable. The series was not commercially successful, although I heard SCYOA1 has made it onto Apps. I've only heard pretty bad things about 2000s revived CYOA, that doesn't necessarily mean the writers won't turn it around as FF has but I really think CYOA has had its day. It wasn't just juvenile, or badly-written and disjointed, it was also cheesy, patronising, inappropriate, ridiculous, boring, overrated and violent. I say those things as a fan, and someone who thinks some CYOA are wonderful.
Yes, but I'm sure the series had bad points as well. |
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Post by alziel on Dec 21, 2023 10:58:06 GMT
I always found the books by JH Brennan were incredibly disappointing - 'Grail Quest' and 'Sagas of The Demonspawn'.
I thought that both series' had great concepts and some excellent prose and storytelling in places, and 'Grail Quest', actually did have some quite funny moments, but neither series worked from a gameplay perspective, with muddy and vague rules, being over-complicated (especially the horrendous 'system' in Demonspawn, which proved that there had been no playtesting!) and suffering from pointless gimmicks ('Grail Quest', in later books).
I understand that Demospawn had a digital release by Tin Man (I think?) a few years ago, where the rules and all the broken stuff had been completely overhauled and simplified, but that seems to have vanished now, so I assume that it never took off? However, both series had such great potential, and I really wish that they could be re-released with all the messy stuff fixed up and properly playtested....
Mind you, Mr Brennan himself is certainly quite an interesting character, so who knows what might emerge if he ever decides to revisit these titles himself?
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 21, 2023 11:36:35 GMT
With very few exceptions, I was pretty disappointed by CYOA from the start. Bear in mind my first example of any of these sorts of books was Deathtrap Dungeon so my expectations were high. CYOA was too many random happenings, disjointed stories and ideas, too short, and aimed at too young an age group. I thought they were low-effort affairs - formulaic and churned out like they were coming out of a sausage machine. Did the series ever 'mature'? Or did it just stay where it was - was book 100 more or less the same thing as book 1? I might add that in spite of some criticism slloyd14 has picked up on, technically CYOA ran for much longer than 100 books. The original run was 185 CYOA, so plus a handful of new CYOA entries in the 2000s I would say there were around 200 books, even not counting several spin-off series, Abominable Snowman DVD, and How To Write Choose Your Own Adventure. Unfortunately I've heard the so-called revival in the 2000s - much like FF does - mainly reprints old CYOA rather than new titles. Edit: Looking up CYOA in response to this I came across CYOA Stranger Things so apparently the series is still going  . |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Dec 23, 2023 15:05:40 GMT
I always found the books by JH Brennan were incredibly disappointing - 'Grail Quest' and 'Sagas of The Demonspawn'. I thought that both series' had great concepts and some excellent prose and storytelling in places, and 'Grail Quest', actually did have some quite funny moments, but neither series worked from a gameplay perspective, with muddy and vague rules, being over-complicated (especially the horrendous 'system' in Demonspawn, which proved that there had been no playtesting!) and suffering from pointless gimmicks ('Grail Quest', in later books). I understand that Demospawn had a digital release by Tin Man (I think?) a few years ago, where the rules and all the broken stuff had been completely overhauled and simplified, but that seems to have vanished now, so I assume that it never took off? However, both series had such great potential, and I really wish that they could be re-released with all the messy stuff fixed up and properly playtested.... Mind you, Mr Brennan himself is certainly quite an interesting character, so who knows what might emerge if he ever decides to revisit these titles himself? I also wasn't impressed by Grailquest after seeing so many great reviews on it. I didn't even like the prose and thought the hub-like presentation was very lazy and most of them don't connect well with your actions if you didn't do them in a certain order. Demonspawn had better prose but yeah the game system doesn't work. CYOA is another that doesn't engage me in the slightest. They read like something I would find for free online but made into a physical series. The 'choices' you get are really uninteresting and I remain surprised that it still has a fanbase. |
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 23, 2023 15:58:25 GMT
I also wasn't impressed by Grailquest after seeing so many great reviews on it. I didn't even like the prose and thought the hub-like presentation was very lazy and most of them don't connect well with your actions if you didn't do them in a certain order. Demonspawn had better prose but yeah the game system doesn't work. CYOA is another that doesn't engage me in the slightest. They read like something I would find for free online but made into a physical series. The 'choices' you get are really uninteresting and I remain surprised that it still has a fanbase. I put CYOA's fanbase in large part down to Edward Packard, who sometimes has a flair for concepts as well as writing (riddles, characters from historical eras, magic\mythology, sf etc). Because in the '80s gamebooks were actually popular, including ones with a simple game system or that were very kid-orientated, quite a few CYOA actually had some effort put into them, whether or not the outcome was brilliant. |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 2, 2024 16:51:46 GMT
I've now had another go at the Be A Detective gamebook I mentioned here, and it's sunk even lower in my estimation - sufficiently that I think verbally shredding it is better suited to this thread than one on an unrelated CYOA. As I had suspected/dreaded, it's what I call a Schroedinger's gamebook - the details of what's going on vary on different routes through the book. More specifically, because I made different decisions the second time round, the nature of the crime being committed and the identity of the perpetrator(s) are not the same as they were before. Yesterday the bookkeeper was a smuggler, but now the office staff are all in cahoots with a bunch of hijackers. Well, thieves, but the book calls them hijackers because the vans transporting the goods they steal end up going somewhere other than their intended destination. So far there's not much of a link between the title of the book ( The Feathered Serpent) and what was going on in either of the 'mysteries'. I mean, I know the title is a term used for assorted Mesoamerican gods, and both crimes have a connection with Mexico, but it's about as appropriate as calling a book The Round Table because it involves someone robbing the Bank of England and, you know, King Arthur was in England, right? Also, since I chose the 'worst case scenario' option almost every time and still got a happy ending, it wouldn't surprise me if the book turns out to have no routes ending in failure. Not my least favourite gamebook by a long way (so far), but I'm almost impressed at how many different ways it manages to go wrong while still not being as rubbish as the real turkeys. |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 4, 2024 21:12:44 GMT
One of my complaints about the abovementioned book reminded me of what is one of my least favourite gamebooks, and I don’t think I’ve ever commented on that particular book since reading it, so now seems as good a time as any to say a bit about it. Before I turn my attention to the book itself, I should point out that I read an advance copy, sent out for review purposes. Not sent to me – I am most definitely not among the target audience (indeed, all indications are that I’m not among the subset of humans the author thinks deserve to exist) – but judging by the condition the book was in when I found it in the charity shop, and the state it was in after just a couple of reads (and no, I didn’t inflict any kind of violence upon it, no matter how awful it got), it seems likely that the original recipient didn’t even open it, let alone read any of it, so now may be the first time that this particular review copy has actually achieved the purpose for which it was designed. Still, the reason I mention this is that there exists a possibility that changes were made to the text between the issuing of the advance copies and the book’s publication, so some of what’s wrong with the book as I read it may not apply to the version that was sold in bookshops. Disclaimer over: time to focus on the book itself. Back in 2008, Heather McElhatton’s debut novel Pretty Little Mistakes came out, with a publicity campaign intended to ‘propel it to the top of the charts’. I don’t know if the advertising achieved that goal, but the book did get mentioned in one of the Yahoo! groups dedicated to gamebooks, so it wasn’t completely ineffective. The front cover of my copy has the tagline: The back cover and first page both go on to state that there are, in fact, more than 150 endings. Which is not entirely accurate. There are 99 endings (two of them virtually identical), plus one path that loops back to section 1 (you basically get reincarnated as yourself). As for ‘Which one will you choose?’, that implies rather more reader agency than is actually present in the book. Yes, you occasionally get to make decisions, but often the book forces courses of action upon you. You can choose whether or not to go to college, but when the ‘medical student’ path hits your character with a heavy workload, you automatically end up becoming a meth addict. In another part of the book, being in the same room as a stranger you dislike inevitably leads to your character having sex with him and becoming pregnant. And so on. Additionally, while the decisions you do get to make will ultimately determine which ending you reach, there is rarely any logical connection between what you choose to do and how you fare. For example, the final choice on one branch concerns whether or not you take advantage of an opportunity to make some money by insider trading. Here’s a little challenge for you: guess at the possible outcomes to this decision, then look at the spoilers below to find out what actually happens, and see how close you got… If you break the law to make a profit You become a children’s TV star, and an outraged parent shoots you dead after you get involved in a sex scandal. If you don’t risk it You go on holiday and get eaten by a shark. Perhaps aiming at some greater depth, the book sometimes details what happens to your character after death. However, the nature of existence in this book is just as dependent upon authorial whim as the ways in which you can end up dying. How you chose to lead your life (when the book actually gave you the option) has little bearing on whether you end up paying for your misdeeds or get yelled at by an irritable insect god for being incompetent or whatever other arbitrary fate Ms McElhatton chooses to inflict upon you. I could go on about the unlikeable viewpoint character, the bigotry, the hypocrisy, the forcing together of unrelated paths through the book, or the crass ‘adult’ content, but ranting about the book is just souring my mood, so I'll quit before it gets any worse. There was nothing pretty about the mistakes I made by buying and reading this book. |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,460
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 5, 2024 12:22:54 GMT
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Post by a moderator on Jan 5, 2024 13:15:59 GMT
For many years I had completist tendencies when it came to gamebook collecting. If I had one book in a series, I would make an effort to acquire all the others.
Heather McElhatton brought out a follow-up to PLM, and now I don't mind having incomplete sets.
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Per
Traveller
AHAHAHA!
Posts: 151
Favourite Gamebook Series: Morris VR, some FF, Chalk LW
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Post by Per on Jan 5, 2024 15:40:36 GMT
If you decide you want to complete your sets, you get knifed by squirrels behind the old crematorium. If you don't, you are electrocuted trying to squeeze past an electric heater in a used sporting goods store. |
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Post by a moderator on Jan 5, 2024 16:10:05 GMT
If you decide you want to complete your sets, you get knifed by squirrels behind the old crematorium. If you don't, you are electrocuted trying to squeeze past an electric heater in a used sporting goods store. Drat. I guessed You get bitten by a rabid badger and expire in agony. and A disgruntled eBay vendor expresses his displeasure at the decrease in sales by sending you anthrax instead of your next purchase. |
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Per
Traveller
AHAHAHA!
Posts: 151
Favourite Gamebook Series: Morris VR, some FF, Chalk LW
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Post by Per on Jan 5, 2024 21:40:43 GMT
A disgruntled eBay vendor expresses his displeasure at the decrease in sales by sending you anthrax instead of your next purchase. Whoa, we don't want to cause any real-life "You become a gamebook reader and terminally overdose on causality in the first one" incidents. |
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