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Post by tyrion on May 29, 2024 8:36:56 GMT
How about we discuss the monsters found in Out of the Pit? What are your favourite encounters with them? Which is your favourite illustration? If you have used them in the AFF/FF RPG, how have you used them?
From Titannica:
Fighting Fantasy Monsters - Out of the Pit was a catalogue of the monsters encountered in the Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and was almost totally comprehensive for the books included up to the publishing date of 1985 when it was published by Puffin Books. It is one of the two Fighting Fantasy Manuals and was also, after 1989, deemed to form part of the "Advanced Fighting Fantasy System". An oversized A4 version was first published in 1985, and later in 1989, a smaller B Format edition to be the same size as Dungeoneer. The latter was published to become integrated with the Advanced Fighting Fantasy system, of which it retrospectively became a part. It was reprinted as Out of the Pit - Monsters of Advanced Fighting Fantasy in 2011 by Arion Games , returning to the original A4 Format. It was compiled with Advanced Fighting Fantasy – The Roleplaying Game and Titan - The Fighting Fantasy World to make a volume called Advanced Fighting Fantasy Deluxe in 2016.
"Out of the Pit" was originally a bestiary of Fighting Fantasy monsters within the pages of Warlock magazine, contributed by various authors and readers throughout the issues. This section (which had the same name as the book) soon proved so popular that in issue 3 a "Monsters Book" was advertised as being in production. In issue 4 the book was again advertised as being in production with a working title of Out of the Pit: The Fighting Fantasy Book of Monsters. At around the same time as issue 5 was published, so too was the book Out of the Pit in 1985, which featured creatures from the books that had been published to date plus all creatures that had appeared in this section of Warlock, as well as some new creations from the mind of Marc Gascoigne. The section continued to appear in Warlock beyond the publishing of the book, thus there are some creatures that appear in the "Out of the Pit" section of the magazine, that do not appear in the book.
The bestiary was written by Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone and edited by Marc Gascoigne. The impressive A4 version boasted a highly acclaimed cover illustration by Christos Achilleos featuring a horde of undead, Demons and Dragons advancing.
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Post by tyrion on May 29, 2024 8:49:20 GMT
The cover of the book depicts many of the monsters and some characters from the books. I'm not actually sure what the big winged thing at the back is though. My favourite one on the cover (actually on the back) is the lizard man.
The first page is the blurb, which describes the importance of monsters in the fantasy world. The introduction, by IL and SJ, sets the scene for the book, as does the page titled 'The land of danger.' Here we also learn a little bit about the history and geography of Allansia and Kakhabad. The second sentence in this section is interesting, as it mentions Titan, and it is clear from the latter paragraphs that Allansia and Kakhabad are in the same world. Given the mention of travel between Allansia and Kakhabad, I wonder why later maps didn't put Allansia to the east and Kakhabad (and the rest of the old world) to the west. There is no mention of Khul, as that wouldn't be explored until later books.
Next are beautiful maps of Allansia and Kakhabad, and then a page explanating the stats blocks in the monster entries. And then we're into the monsters themselves.
I've got the original A4 version, with the colour illustrations in the middle. The first is an army of doragar about to charge through a hail of arrows. Nicely done. The second is a night demon, presumably either somewhere foggy, or on its home plane. Next is a brain slayer. I didn't know these things were green and wore snazzy smoking jackets. Then the fog devils, although I used to think the human figure was some sort of angel. Next is the properly disturbing life stealer. Then two creatures that only properly appear in later books, the dracon and a dark elf (I'm thinking the city in the background is the one that appears in siege of sardath). Finally the iconic shapechanger.
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Post by tyrion on May 29, 2024 9:51:04 GMT
I'm going to do this alphabetically, but feel free to jump in as and when you feel like it.
Aakor - this was a new one to me. I don't remember encountering them anywhere. Giant Aardwolf - from FF the introductory RPG? Although there they are underground rather than on plains as the description says. They look pretty mean though. Great Ape - another one I've never encountered. Ape Man - now we're on familiar territory. With an illustration from Forest of Doom. Baddu-Beetle - big vicious things. Are the extra appendages at the front of it to detect vibrations? Banshee - easily avoided in the Caverns of the Snow Witch but scary nonetheless. Basilisk - the basilisk and the cockatrice are interchangeable in folklore, but here we have a reptile that can turn you to stone. Bat - either a slight annoyance, or a vampire. Bear - I've seen Revenant. I'm staying away from these. Bhorket - I don't think I've encountered one of these. Birdman - either a mandatory skill 12 encounter in Caverns of the Snow Witch, stealer of the Crown of Kings, or stern but helpful allies that love their mothers. I prefer the John Blanche illustration here than the one in CotSW. Black Lion - the one in OotP doesn't look particularly ferocious, but the one in Island of the Lizard King does.
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Post by Per on May 29, 2024 12:53:47 GMT
I'm not actually sure what the big winged thing at the back is though. Looks very much like the dragon from Caverns. Interestingly the cover is another one where a colour separation could possibly have been lost - my 1989 copy has magenta and yellow components, but no discernible cyan. (The Puffin logo is cerise instead of the yellow or white that it is on all my other books except for my definitely misprinted Chasms of Malice, where it is a light pink, although I'm guessing that's a coincidence and they just thought that colour matched the cover better.) Someone who may or may not be the rights holder is selling prints of the cover artwork online (tagging it "Age of Sigmar", among other things), and that image has more saturated colours than the cover of my copy but no blatant blue elements, much like the cover for Armies of Death, so maybe that was just Achilleos's style. Do scans of the colour pages exist somewhere, or could we get some photos?
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Post by vastariner on May 29, 2024 14:51:54 GMT
Thought the winged thing was one of the Night Demons.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 29, 2024 15:46:38 GMT
In Out of the Pit and The Riddling Reaver krell are described and illustrated as six armed monkeys. In Battleblade Warrior they're described and illustrated as six limbed (four armed).
This inconsistency has bugged me ever since.
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Post by tyrion on May 30, 2024 11:18:38 GMT
Do scans of the colour pages exist somewhere, or could we get some photos? Link
There's one for sale on ebay that someone has taken pictures of.
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Post by CharlesX on May 30, 2024 12:17:30 GMT
In Out of the Pit and The Riddling Reaver krell are described and illustrated as six armed monkeys. In Battleblade Warrior they're described and illustrated as six limbed (four armed). This inconsistency has bugged me ever since. Do you think maybe you could imagine they're different sub-species, like the Lizard-men in Riddling Reaver or the Arcadian in Rebel Planet? I acknowledge this doesn't fully deal with it.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 30, 2024 14:08:01 GMT
In Out of the Pit and The Riddling Reaver krell are described and illustrated as six armed monkeys. In Battleblade Warrior they're described and illustrated as six limbed (four armed). This inconsistency has bugged me ever since. Do you think maybe you could imagine they're different sub-species, like the Lizard-men in Riddling Reaver or the Arcadian in Rebel Planet? I acknowledge this doesn't fully deal with it. That's solved it! What have I wasted my life worrying about this for? Finally, I can move on.
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Post by Per on May 30, 2024 14:52:11 GMT
Do scans of the colour pages exist somewhere, or could we get some photos? Link
There's one for sale on ebay that someone has taken pictures of. Thanks! Looking at the images of the cover I see there's some purple text on the back and also a purplish patch under the dragon's wing, which is also faintly present in the 1989 cover though with a slightly different distribution, so maybe this isn't a case of (that kind of) misprinting after all, although looking at the pink 1989 edition cover you could certainly get that impression.
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Post by vastariner on May 30, 2024 21:41:42 GMT
Do you think maybe you could imagine they're different sub-species, like the Lizard-men in Riddling Reaver or the Arcadian in Rebel Planet? I acknowledge this doesn't fully deal with it. That's solved it! What have I wasted my life worrying about this for? Finally, I can move on. I'm not so sure. Subspecies suggests the possibility of breeding across the subspecific divide. That's hardly likely or even possible when it comes to such a large difference.
It's probably simpler. Anything with four limbs and a tail is a monkey of some sort. Anything with more limbs is a krell.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 30, 2024 22:13:50 GMT
That's solved it! What have I wasted my life worrying about this for? Finally, I can move on. I'm not so sure. Subspecies suggests the possibility of breeding across the subspecific divide. That's hardly likely or even possible when it comes to such a large difference.
It's probably simpler. Anything with four limbs and a tail is a monkey of some sort. Anything with more limbs is a krell. I think if we're going to start applying linnean taxonomy to most of the creatures of Titan, we'll come unstuck. It'll turn out krell are actually insects, and their resemblance to monkeys is due to convergent evolution.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on May 31, 2024 2:52:16 GMT
Has anybody made or read about any attempts to make the execution of the Messenger of Death's assassination more effective/less of a joke while retaining the overall concept?
I mean, game mechanics-wise, you can sort of make sure the player hits most or all of the hidden letters by placing them at unavoidable encounters, or hiding them along with essential quest items (I believe Phil Sadler did the latter in one of his books), but as a story while it's an interesting concept the fact that you just have to miss one of the five letters to render the whole ritual ineffective makes the assassin look really impotent.
What I'm considering as a possible fix is to make the process a recurring cycle rather than a one-off - after a certain period of time, the Messenger will pick up all the letters that its target bypassed and failed to find and hide them ahead him/her all over again. Kind of like how in Final Destination, when the protagonist "breaks the chain", the process doesn't end, but simply skips ahead, and then cycles back to the beginning again over and over until everyone is dead. This means avoiding the letters only delay the inevitable instead of ending the threat. It also gives the PC motivation to actively hunt down the letters at some point - the only way to end the whole ritual is to kill the Messenger as it manifests after the final letter is found, with a silver dagger. The choice is either to force an eventual showdown while the player is ready (with the appropriate weapon), or live through the rest of his life not knowing when he'd unexpectedly find the last letter and come to an abrupt death.
Any alternate ideas or suggested improvements?
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Post by vastariner on May 31, 2024 7:28:58 GMT
Risk is thereby overpowering the MoD. Best in-game explanation is that the magic which makes the MoD work is difficult to make work, and fixed in time and space. The MoD is already so powerful that the eldritch procedures to summon one to the Material Plane are too complex/subject to the equal power of Suma or even greater power of Logaan to warrant use more than on very occasional circumstances.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on May 31, 2024 7:48:21 GMT
I don't find that too overpowered though. All you need to kill it is a silver dagger, and that's something that's relatively common in FF fantasy world.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 31, 2024 8:09:02 GMT
I think your solution is great, Gabe. The whole 'Messenger of Death' concept is a great in-game idea, but from a world building perspective it sucks a bit. Nobody would employ such an assassin; one that has the capacity to just suck the life out of its target but mucks about with some daft game instead. A sequel to ToT in which the hero has to find a way to lift the curse would be interesting.
I just checked Titannica to see what it has to say about the Messenger of Death and was surprised to learn that it's a Messenger of Death, even though it's always capitalised like a proper noun. I'd always assumed the Messenger of Death in ToT was a one of a kind. So, anyway, once 'bound' to a specific target, these creatures could spend as long as necessary trying to finish their jobs.
Having the letters cycle so that the first letter of DEATH you missed is the next one to be planted ahead of you is one solution. For fairness, though, and for ease if you were writing, say, a horror themed sequel to ToT where you'd never know how many letters the hero saw in Vatos, I think the MoD should have to begin again from D. But that does mean you're off the hook for a little while if you see D, then a little later A, therefore knowing you've missed E and can now with impunity see T and H, before the cycle begins again.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 31, 2024 9:15:17 GMT
I have a bit of an issue with virtually identical creatures just with different names proliferating in fantasy worlds. I think it's kind of my issue, so not so much a criticism as an acknowledgement of my own hang-ups. But I mean, goblin-like creatures with different names when they could have just been goblins. Undead with different names when they're basically the same thing. Flying imp things that could all be the same thing. Little fairy like things... and so on.
It feels like a fairly cheap way to make an encounter seem unique but you end up with so many random creatures all serving the same purpose, it feels to me like it negatively impacts the sense of a solid realism in the world.
Reading the opening posts, I thought I'd look up giant aardwolf in Titannica. I remember this thing being in OotP, but not much about it. I'm thinking, 'Aardwolves eat insects. How giant does this thing need to be that it treats you like an ant?' But it could have just been a wolf. (That's despite that it's described as a canine, and hyenas, like the aardwolf, aren't.) That led me to mordidas. They're basically wolves, too, in any functional way.
So, is the giant aardwolf an example of that cheapest way to create a new fantasy creature; take a real animal and add the word 'giant', in this case resulting in something that could just be a wolf? Probably. Could the gremlins of Darkwood Forest have just been goblins? Probably. I mean, if you're going to use 'gremlin', at least give them mechanical knowledge and devices.
This is not so much a rant as an observation. Perhaps an unfair or incorrect one. Similar creatures with similar or overlapping stat ranges don't really need to exist in the same game world.
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Post by CharlesX on May 31, 2024 17:00:07 GMT
How about if you can collect the letters SUMA (or LIFE or GOOD) you can summon the Suma, the messenger of the Good Gods, who could fight the Messenger of Death if you're unfortnate enough to summon him?
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Post by vastariner on May 31, 2024 21:15:30 GMT
I think your solution is great, Gabe. The whole 'Messenger of Death' concept is a great in-game idea, but from a world building perspective it sucks a bit. Nobody would employ such an assassin; one that has the capacity to just suck the life out of its target but mucks about with some daft game instead. Yeah, the MoD is a concept that works in the abstract but it's difficult to reconcile it as a real world thing. Maybe something which is too weak to launch a full Death spell so has to do it in bits. And they have to be fairly close because it does not have the energy to stay on the Material Plane long enough.
Could even be the result of some Celestial Court bargaining. Death: "Can I just send some thing to Titan that apparates out of nowhere and kills on touch?" Logaan: "no, that's way too easy, you've got to give the victim a chance." Death: "maybe do it in instalments then..."
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Jun 1, 2024 6:28:27 GMT
How about if you can collect the letters SUMA (or LIFE or GOOD) you can summon the Suma, the messenger of the Good Gods, who could fight the Messenger of Death if you're unfortnate enough to summon him?
Interesting concept, but as a game, I think the help ought be more difficult/challenging to summon than the threat. Four letters is way too easy. Death is an actual god (I know the MoD isn't), so maybe invoke a God of Good to counter his minion. Something like Galana (fertility is associated with life) or Glantanka (the Sun is often associated with that too), since there're no gods of life.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Jun 1, 2024 6:32:37 GMT
I think your solution is great, Gabe. The whole 'Messenger of Death' concept is a great in-game idea, but from a world building perspective it sucks a bit. Nobody would employ such an assassin; one that has the capacity to just suck the life out of its target but mucks about with some daft game instead. Yeah, the MoD is a concept that works in the abstract but it's difficult to reconcile it as a real world thing. Maybe something which is too weak to launch a full Death spell so has to do it in bits. And they have to be fairly close because it does not have the energy to stay on the Material Plane long enough. I was also thinking something along the lines of not it not being fully materialized on this plane yet and therefore too weak to outright kill you in the initial encounter. Each letter found strengthens the link between you and the MoD, and drains a bit of your life force (since you lose some STAMINA for each letter found) to strengthen its presence on this plane until the link is strong enough to go for the kill. Conversely, because it wasn't fully materialized on this plane before then, you also can't kill it until it is, and therefore there's only that slight window of opportunity for you to kill it with a silver dagger in its final materialization.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Jun 1, 2024 6:38:32 GMT
Having the letters cycle so that the first letter of DEATH you missed is the next one to be planted ahead of you is one solution. For fairness, though, and for ease if you were writing, say, a horror themed sequel to ToT where you'd never know how many letters the hero saw in Vatos, I think the MoD should have to begin again from D. But that does mean you're off the hook for a little while if you see D, then a little later A, therefore knowing you've missed E and can now with impunity see T and H, before the cycle begins again. I'm of two minds about this. For the sequel example you mentioned, yes, it's definitely more viable to go back to restart the full ritual all over. But as a continuing theme within the same book it'd also take much more length and content to accommodate, and very little pressure for the player for a forced showdown since he has so much leeway within each cycle.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Jun 1, 2024 8:07:52 GMT
Having the letters cycle so that the first letter of DEATH you missed is the next one to be planted ahead of you is one solution. For fairness, though, and for ease if you were writing, say, a horror themed sequel to ToT where you'd never know how many letters the hero saw in Vatos, I think the MoD should have to begin again from D. But that does mean you're off the hook for a little while if you see D, then a little later A, therefore knowing you've missed E and can now with impunity see T and H, before the cycle begins again. I'm of two minds about this. For the sequel example you mentioned, yes, it's definitely more viable to go back to restart the full ritual all over. But as a continuing theme within the same book it'd also take much more length and content to accommodate, and very little pressure for the player for a forced showdown since he has so much leeway within each cycle. This could be a narrative problem, solved in a narrative manner. Say the hero has a cycle begin when he leaves Vatos. His chances of being killed in that cycle as he moved travels back to Stonebridge and Darkwood are slim, perhaps. But he'll know he won't always be travelling. He might not be snagged by the MoD in that cycle, or the next. But one day, he'll be spending a week in a town, perhaps in an Inn, and he'll wake up and his clothes will be on the floor in a D shape. And then he'll see toothpaste on the mirror in an E. Then he'll get in the shower and find dead cockroaches in the shower tray in an A. Etc. Yes, he could do something completely unpredictable like jump out the window, but what sort of life is that? He's a go-get-'em adventurer after all. So he'll know as soon as he finds out he's still cursed that he's got to solve this problem. While avoiding the first cycle (second, counting the Vatos cycle), and investigating his options, he discovers lifting the curse involves summoning the MoD, so he now has to find the letters. There's plenty of problems that occur with this but I've only just started thinking it through.
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 1, 2024 8:34:04 GMT
Going seriously OT I reckon the Assassins Dagger (used in Knights Of Doom) is more terrifying than the Messenger Of Death. In an RPG the Assassins Dagger would be a constant thorn\threat that is less cliche and more cool than the Messenger.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Jun 2, 2024 6:52:57 GMT
Going seriously OT I reckon the Assassins Dagger (used in Knights Of Doom) is more terrifying than the Messenger Of Death. In an RPG the Assassins Dagger would be a constant thorn\threat that is less cliche and more cool than the Messenger. Oh absolutely. Even compared to the version of the MoD I suggested, the Assassin's Dagger is actually way more overpowered. Non-magic-users have no way of dealing with it permanently by themselves and pretty much have to run to a powerful and helpful wizard/priest for help.
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Post by tyrion on Jun 2, 2024 9:35:35 GMT
Next alphabetically for me is the bloodbeast. OotP says that the bloodbeast can never leave its pool once it has been spawned, which begs the question: how does it reproduce? Pathogenesis maybe? If it is spawned in its pool, what happens to the parent bloodbeast?
Which of its eyes are the real ones? One would assume they are the larger ones on the side of its head (like a reptile), in which case all the fake eyes aren't really a distraction, just decoration.
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Post by tyrion on Jun 2, 2024 9:45:06 GMT
I have a bit of an issue with virtually identical creatures just with different names proliferating in fantasy worlds. I think it's kind of my issue, so not so much a criticism as an acknowledgement of my own hang-ups. But I mean, goblin-like creatures with different names when they could have just been goblins. Undead with different names when they're basically the same thing. Flying imp things that could all be the same thing. Little fairy like things... and so on. It feels like a fairly cheap way to make an encounter seem unique but you end up with so many random creatures all serving the same purpose, it feels to me like it negatively impacts the sense of a solid realism in the world. Reading the opening posts, I thought I'd look up giant aardwolf in Titannica. I remember this thing being in OotP, but not much about it. I'm thinking, 'Aardwolves eat insects. How giant does this thing need to be that it treats you like an ant?' But it could have just been a wolf. (That's despite that it's described as a canine, and hyenas, like the aardwolf, aren't.) That led me to mordidas. They're basically wolves, too, in any functional way. So, is the giant aardwolf an example of that cheapest way to create a new fantasy creature; take a real animal and add the word 'giant', in this case resulting in something that could just be a wolf? Probably. Could the gremlins of Darkwood Forest have just been goblins? Probably. I mean, if you're going to use 'gremlin', at least give them mechanical knowledge and devices. This is not so much a rant as an observation. Perhaps an unfair or incorrect one. Similar creatures with similar or overlapping stat ranges don't really need to exist in the same game world. When I started playing dragon warriors many years ago, I was wondering why there were no orcs. And then I realised; humans are the worst sort of monster. There's no need for tieflings or eight different types of goblinoid, their roles can just as easily be humans with different outlooks on life. It's very rare in a dragon warriors adventure to encounter goblins or hobgoblins (and when you do, you'd better watch out). A giant aardwolf would just be a wolf (although, of course, it could be a werewolf, or a sorcerer's companion, or a baron's son transformed into a wolf...).
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Jun 2, 2024 10:19:52 GMT
Next alphabetically for me is the bloodbeast. OotP says that the bloodbeast can never leave its pool once it has been spawned, which begs the question: how does it reproduce? Pathogenesis maybe? If it is spawned in its pool, what happens to the parent bloodbeast? Which of its eyes are the real ones? One would assume they are the larger ones on the side of its head (like a reptile), in which case all the fake eyes aren't really a distraction, just decoration. Yeah, the bloodbeast is an absolute classic FF monster, but I think I put that down to a cool cover illustration by Iain McCaig. The creature itself has multiple problems. The piercing the correct eyes thing makes no sense, but I always put it down to the author having a different vision from the illustrator. You only have to look at it to see which are its real eyes (unless, of course, its actual real eyes are among those that look like the fake ones). Like you say, its life cycle makes no sense, unless there's something the scholars of Titan have yet to discover. But one of the things I find most puzzling is its name. This creature has numerous unusual characteristics; multiple apparent eyes, a deadly, prehensile tongue, a self generated pool of corrosive, noxious slime. Yet it's given the name 'bloodbeast', which is just like a generic cool sounding monster name. What's blood got to do with it? In spite of this, the bloodbeast is a classic monster. One of the monsters that defines Fighting Fantasy's style at its height.
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Post by vastariner on Jun 3, 2024 7:52:24 GMT
I bet it's neoteny. They mature, breed, and release eggs into the waterstream while still in some sort of tadoplesque stage. And the vast vast vast majority never reach adulthood, but, if they do, they mature into the limbless lizardworm that they are, and continually grow until they run out of food. Short adult lifespan.
In essence, they are malignant axolotls.
Sukumvit probably breeds them, so he can drop a maturing one into the dungeon whenever one gets killed.
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 4, 2024 12:02:23 GMT
How about if you can collect the letters SUMA (or LIFE or GOOD) you can summon the Suma, the messenger of the Good Gods, who could fight the Messenger of Death if you're unfortnate enough to summon him?
Interesting concept, but as a game, I think the help ought be more difficult/challenging to summon than the threat. Four letters is way too easy. Death is an actual god (I know the MoD isn't), so maybe invoke a God of Good to counter his minion. Something like Galana (fertility is associated with life) or Glantanka (the Sun is often associated with that too), since there're no gods of life. What I like about Galana is you can miss entire letters and think you're on track to summon them.
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