11) Talisman of Death Solution

[champskees]

A pretty solid adventure, I really like some of the characters you encounter in this book. It is recommended for this adventure that you have a Skill of 11-12 due to the two mandatory Sk 12 opponents you must face. Luck is handy but you can get through the whole adventure without ever needing to actually Test your Luck. You should take the Potion of Fortune if you want to use your Luck in battles, otherwise take the Potion of Strength.

- Take the Potion of Fortune.
- Hold your ground & draw your sword.
- Say you have come from another world.
- Take Talisman of Death & 10 Gold Pieces.
- Go through the forest.
- Back off & leave.
- Cut a way through the undergrowth (-1 Food).
- Pretend you are deaf and dumb.
- Wait to see what happens.
- Turn left into Smith Street.
- Pass the shop.
- Attack it immediately. Use luck once to kill him in two hits.
- Fight Sk 7 St 5 Minion of Death (it inflicts 1 Skill Damage as well as 2 Stamina damage per hit).
- If you lost any skill points, all but one is restored.
- Ignore it and go into Store Street.
- Enter the library.
- Read about either.
- You have the Talisman of Death (2 Damage).
- Lose Talisman of Death.
- Accept his offer and go home with him (+4 Stamina).
- Tell him the whole story & ask for advice.
- Take Jade Rose, Magic Ring (+1 Skill) & 5 Gold Pieces.
- Go to Red Dragon Inn.
- Interrupt the quarrel & give the charm back (+1 Luck).
- You do not have the Brass Tiger Charm.
- Approach the six surly men that appear to be thieves.
- Say you need help with some unfinished business.
- Introduce yourself.
- Say you wish to meet some thieves.
- Take your leave (+1 Luck).
- Take up the Sage’s dinner invite.
- Go with the boy.
- Go with them into the greenhouse.
- Fight the beast.
- Fight Sk 8 St 12 Vivisect (use Luck to kill him quicker).
- Take Spell of Agonizing Doom.
- You have the Jade Rose (+4 Stamina).
- Remember ‘All-Mother, nature herself, preserve me’.
- Try to find a way into the Thieves’ Guild.
- You have not been told about the storm drain.
- You want to steal the Talisman of Death.
- Silence him.
- Use the pommel of your sword to knock him out.
- Let him kill the old man (-1 Luck).
- Drink Potion of Fortune here.
- Roll D6. 1-4 = 3 Damage. 5-6 = 6 Damage.
- Use Scroll of Agonizing Doom.
- Fight Sk 12 St 6 Hawkana (use Luck once to kill her in two strokes).
- Take Talisman of Death (+1 Luck).
- Go back to Hawkana (+6 Stamina).
- Leave through the double doors.
- Test Skill. Fail = 3 Damage.
- Allow his hammer to strike you.
- Run at Tyutchev (3 Damage).
- Fight Sk 10 St 12 Tyutchev (only need to win one combat round against him).
- Call upon a god for aid.
- Choose the All-Mother.
- You are not wearing magical chainmail.
- You had dinner with the sage; ask for directions to the cemetery.
- Ask him politely to let you through.
- Step aside and let him pass first.
- Ignore the lantern and continue searching along the wall (+1 Luck & 2 Stamina).
- Go south east.
- Light a torch & stand your ground (+1 Stamina).
- Examine the Talisman of Death again.
- Try to use the power of the Talisman (+2 Stamina).
- Examine the waterfall.
- Enter the cave.
- Choose any tunnel.
- Go straight through to the tunnel opposite.
- Leave through one of the other doors.
- Go through the dragon door.
- Take the Spear (+1 Skill).
- Fight Sk 8 St 10 Mummy.
- Test Skill. Fail = Death (unless you have a Roc’s Feather (2 Damage)).
- Tell them you mean no harm.
- Offer them some dried meat (-1 Food).
- Go with them.
- Tell them you are searching for the portals on Mount Starreach.
- Take Gourd filled with Gum of Amber Pine (+2 Stamina).
- Investigate the narrow tunnel.
- Grab some scales.
- Take Three Dragon Scales.
- You have the gourd.
- Run to attack the Dragon.
- Test Skill. Fail = Test Luck. Success = 4 Damage. Fail = Turn to Paragraph 43.
- You are wielding the spear.
- Fight Sk 12 St 20 Red Dragon (your attacks inflict 5 damage instead of 2. Fight is over when dragon’s stamina is 5 or less. Use luck to minimise any damage you take).
- Attack the ‘old man’.
- Success! You made it back to Earth.

[andyzero]

This setting will later be used in the "Way of the Tiger" books; and the theft of the Talisman of Death is directly referred to in the book "Redeemer!"

[philsadler]

"It is recommended for this adventure that you have a Skill of 11-12 due to the two mandatory Sk 12 opponents you must face."

My God. What a joke.

[champskees]

Aug 10, 2017 4:47:56 GMT philsadler said:

"It is recommended for this adventure that you have a Skill of 11-12 due to the two mandatory Sk 12 opponents you must face."

My God. What a joke.

It's not too bad because you only need to hit Hawkana three times (two if you use luck successfully).

The dragon at the end only requires three hits too, so you could get by on a lower skill if you have decent stamina and luck score.

[philsadler]

Well that's certainly better but I still think it's too much for an average skill of 9.

[champskees]

Aug 11, 2017 4:16:36 GMT philsadler said:

Well that's certainly better but I still think it's too much for an average skill of 9.

Sk 9 St 20 vs Sk 12 St 4 = 59% chance of victory (68.4% at 24 stamina).
Sk 9 St 20 vs Sk 12 St 6 = 34.5% chance of victory (44.5% at 24 stamina).

So I guess you could try the old Homer Simpson method and have some kind of chance, but then a lot of the other encounters become a bit more deadly too.
Maybe Sk 10 with 18+ stamina then?

[bloodbeasthandler]

Aug 11, 2017 4:16:36 GMT philsadler said:

Well that's certainly better but I still think it's too much for an average skill of 9.

What do we think of the SKILL bonuses dotted throughout the book? The Paladin's sword granted you whether or not you slay the Death Knight; the helmet used by the priests of Death, bestowing quickness of thought and reaction; and the magical chainmail (are there others?)

 I say we ignore that stuff at the start about not exceeding initial SKILL and go with what I strongly suspect is the author's intent - that these items are there to enable the poor SKILL 7/8/9 folks to have a chance.

[electricwater]

Maybe a better FF mechanic would have been to say your Skill and Luck can’t exceed 12, and Stamina can’t exceed 24. This would give those with low starting scores a chance to improve over the adventure, while limiting those with very high starting scores. Your starting scores would then essentially reflect the condition you happen to be in when you start the quest, rather than an impassible ceiling. The limits of 12/24/12 would reflect the optimum to which you could apire.

[soulreaver]

Ah, yet another adventure with an exploitable loop!
Did you know you can get an Adventurer with effectively infinite Luck (with minimal effort) and infinite Stamina (a bit more effort)?
Here's how you do it!

Luck is the easier one. Pick the Potion of Fortune as your starting potion. Get out of the rift and drink it. Now go off and die at one of the instant-death paragraphs in Greyguilds that will whisk you away to 109... where you regain the Potion, and retain that shiny +1 Initial Luck.  Repeat as often as desired.

Stamina requires more work. You have to get all way the into Greyguilds, and get a total of 12 Gold Pieces (you can get about 15 if you make the 'right' choices, not even counting the ones you start with). After that, go visit the alchemist and buy the Elixir of Life to get +2 Initial Stamina. Now trundle off get yourself killed at the nearest instant death paragraph. Again, you'll get whisked away to 109 and can do it all again as often as you like.

As such, I think the statistical chances of winning this book are actually much higher than champskees' calculations... if you don't mind exploiting the heck out this loophole.

Paragraph 109 really should return your Initial scores back to what they were at the start of the adventure too to avoid this sort of cheese.

[a moderator]

Mar 24, 2023 1:48:48 GMT soulreaver said:

Pick the Potion of Fortune as your starting potion. Get out of the rift and drink it. Now go off and die at the nearest instant-death paragraph to be whisked away to 109... where you regain the Potion, and retain that shiny +1 Initial Luck.  Repeat as often as desired.

The nearest instant-death paragraph is a 'game over' that doesn't lead to 109. I don't think it's possible to get to 109 unless you make it to Greyguilds - presumably Fate and Time decide that anyone who can't even get that far is too hopeless a champion to be worth giving a second chance.

[soulreaver]

Mar 24, 2023 2:25:23 GMT a moderator said:

Mar 24, 2023 1:48:48 GMT soulreaver said:

Pick the Potion of Fortune as your starting potion. Get out of the rift and drink it. Now go off and die at the nearest instant-death paragraph to be whisked away to 109... where you regain the Potion, and retain that shiny +1 Initial Luck.  Repeat as often as desired.

The nearest instant-death paragraph is a 'game over' that doesn't lead to 109. I don't think it's possible to get to 109 unless you make it to Greyguilds - presumably Fate and Time decide that anyone who can't even get that far is too hopeless a champion to be worth giving a second chance.

That's true - in fact, you have to get through one fight (the easiest of which is probably against the Sk:7 St:5 Minion of Death that drains 1 Skill each time it hits you, though with a higher Luck score the Sk:8 St:4 Envoy of Death with the same power might be the easier fight) before cruising unopposed through the first chance of a 109 death (by visiting the temple of Fell-Kyrinla rather than going to the Red Dragon).

This does mean characters with very low skill will still have trouble, as getting hit even once (regardless of Luck) can cause things to go south pretty quick, you don't get to loop if you die in combat, and there is no way to use the loop to improve Skill.

I still feel it's pretty exploitable for characters with a halfway decent Skill score though.  Be interesting to get the stats on it.

[a moderator]

Mar 24, 2023 7:31:55 GMT soulreaver said:

Mar 24, 2023 2:25:23 GMT a moderator said:

The nearest instant-death paragraph is a 'game over' that doesn't lead to 109. I don't think it's possible to get to 109 unless you make it to Greyguilds - presumably Fate and Time decide that anyone who can't even get that far is too hopeless a champion to be worth giving a second chance.

That's true - in fact, you have to get through one fight (the easiest of which is probably against the Sk:7 St:5 Minion of Death that drains 1 Skill each time it hits you, though with a higher Luck score the Sk:8 St:4 Envoy of Death with the same power might be the easier fight) before cruising unopposed through the first chance of a 109 death (by visiting the temple of Fell-Kyrinla rather than going to the Red Dragon).

You can die sooner if, after fighting the Minion, you aid the thieves, and let them trick you into triggering the firetrap on the jeweller's safe.

[soulreaver]

Mar 24, 2023 11:31:19 GMT a moderator said:

Mar 24, 2023 7:31:55 GMT soulreaver said:

That's true - in fact, you have to get through one fight (the easiest of which is probably against the Sk:7 St:5 Minion of Death that drains 1 Skill each time it hits you, though with a higher Luck score the Sk:8 St:4 Envoy of Death with the same power might be the easier fight) before cruising unopposed through the first chance of a 109 death (by visiting the temple of Fell-Kyrinla rather than going to the Red Dragon).

You can die sooner if, after fighting the Minion, you aid the thieves, and let them trick you into triggering the firetrap on the jeweller's safe.

Ah yes, good spotting, that way is indeed faster.

[sakuratwister]

In the 2006 Wizard edition of the book that im playing through, the Hogmen will be offended if you give them dried meat, as the text states that you are giving them salted pork. You can give them a ruby that you obtain early on in the game by choosing to aid the jeweler (Oliol is his name) at Silver Street when his shop is robbed, and the Hogmen will be happy.

[kieran]

Jul 17, 2023 9:08:26 GMT sakuratwister said:

In the 2006 Wizard edition of the book that im playing through, the Hogmen will be offended if you give them dried meat, as the text states that you are giving them salted pork. Instead, you need to give them a ruby that you obtain early on in the game by choosing to aid the jeweler (Oliol is his name) at Silver Street when his shop is robbed.

If you don't get the ruby, you miss out a vital quest item (Gourd of Amber Pine). The rest of the book remains the same.

Wow, that's quite a big difference. I didn't know Wizard made any changes bar correcting errors and some minor tweaks to the writing and battles in the Jonathan Green books.

[scouserob]

Jul 17, 2023 9:08:26 GMT sakuratwister said:

In the 2006 Wizard edition of the book that im playing through, the Hogmen will be offended if you give them dried meat, as the text states that you are giving them salted pork. Instead, you need to give them a ruby that you obtain early on in the game by choosing to aid the jeweler (Oliol is his name) at Silver Street when his shop is robbed.

If you don't get the ruby, you miss out a vital quest item (Gourd of Amber Pine). The rest of the book remains the same.

Just completed mapping this and in the original you could get the Amber Pine Gum no matter what approach you take with the Hogmen.
Fight, Offer Meat or Offer the Ruby.

The Ruby automatically gets you the Amber Pine Gum if you go with them.

Offering the meat or fighting them means you both have to go with them and talk about the portals rather than make up some story about finding a lost city to get the Amber Pine Gum.

A rather forgiving little set piece.

Are you sure it has changed that much?
Does fighting them in the the Wizard version also mean you can't get the Amber Pine Gum?

[a moderator]

I've just checked my Wizard 20006 edition of Talisman, and in it, offending the Hogmen with salted pork does not guarantee failure. Even after they take umbrage at your offering, you still get the option of telling the Headhog the truth about why you're in the area, and he gives you the gum as outlined by scouserob. Attacking them likewise still leads to the same audience with the Headhog.

[sakuratwister]

Jul 17, 2023 12:27:56 GMT a moderator said:

I've just checked my Wizard 20006 edition of Talisman, and in it, offending the Hogmen with salted pork does not guarantee failure. Even after they take umbrage at your offering, you still get the option of telling the Headhog the truth about why you're in the area, and he gives you the gum as outlined by scouserob. Attacking them likewise still leads to the same audience with the Headhog.

Apologies for my error. I was under the impression that something bad would happen to you if you did so!
I was also looking if there was another way to obtain the ruby, but if you choose to side with the thieves, you are locked out of getting it.

[scouserob]

For those who like their solutions visual, here is a run through of Talisman of Death on my iOS App. 

[CharlesX]

A very rough % chance of completing an FF worked out by extrapolating Champskees Table Skill, 3 permutations for Stamina and Luck.

Talisman of Death odds of Victory 36.65%

Technically 36.65(36recurring)%.

This is definitely one of the fairer gamebooks. Even a Skill 8 hero has a definite chance of success, at the same time, a Skill 12 hero is absolutely not guaranteed victory.