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Post by tyrion on Aug 7, 2020 8:00:47 GMT
Last round, return to firetop mountain, keep of the lich lord and tower of destruction were eliminated. Some great books in this group.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 7, 2020 9:10:27 GMT
This is a tough one; all of these books are way above average.
I think my first vote goes to Master of Chaos. The first half is brilliant, Ashkyos is right up there with Blacksand and Khare. And although it has Martin's usual hub and spoke design, it's actually very well utilised here. All you're doing is kitting yourself out for the journey ahead so there's no pressure to do everything or to do things in the right order. And indeed the Notoriety score will prevent you from dawdling too long. The book also has FF's greatest sidekick in Jesper the Mongoose, and an interesting rival in Naas the dark elf - it will probably take a few attempts to piece together everything about him and his relationship with Shanzikuul and even then there remains a fair bit of mystery about it. However, it has to be said the second half is a bit dull, particularly if you take the overland route, and exploring ruined Kabesh isn't very exciting.
My second vote is even tougher since all these books would be competing for my top 20. I'll probably have to go with The Crimson Tide. It's a very interesting book, with a lot of elaborate false paths and there's no other book quite like it. Unfortunately it's too unforgiving, both in terms of dice rolls and working out what to do. The same is true of Black Vein Prophecy of course, but it's slightly more imaginative. And the other books are just much better from a gameplay perspective.
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Post by stevendoig on Aug 7, 2020 10:22:31 GMT
Black vein & crimson to go - both far too clever for their own good!!
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Post by Wilf on Aug 7, 2020 11:43:51 GMT
Being clever is punishable now???
Voted for Master Of Chaos (the only genuine stinker remaining) and Spectral Stalkers. Much as I find the latter fascinating and replayable, the last three on the list are among my all-time favourites (the apparent requirement for certain skills in Moonrunner notwithstanding - see previous thread), and Prophecy and Legend are both classics (give or take a rather unfair Luck Test at the start of the former).
I will find it very difficult to vote out anything by Stephen Hand or Paul Mason, and with Siege being my favourite FF of all, I might have to abstain once Master and Stalkers disappear.
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Post by stevendoig on Aug 7, 2020 12:39:24 GMT
Being 'too' clever is with regards to game books, aye.
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Post by a moderator on Aug 7, 2020 13:16:00 GMT
That rotten maze drags Legend down.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,680
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 7, 2020 13:24:27 GMT
That rotten maze drags Legend down. I don't mind the maze since it is designed to kill you.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,680
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 7, 2020 13:25:43 GMT
This round we get to find out who gets Black Vein Prophecy and who doesn't.
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Post by stevendoig on Aug 7, 2020 13:27:01 GMT
I am on record as having a heid full of mince so I have never got it.
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Post by The Count on Aug 7, 2020 14:22:43 GMT
Three of these books are in my top 5, one more in my top 15, leaving this between 3 still great books
Master of Chaos is the weakest, being slightly patchy.
Spectral Stalkers is quirky and a great book to play - lack of combats let's it down. However, despite being incredibly atmospheric, I don't like Moonrunner as much as Stalkers.
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Post by tyrion on Aug 7, 2020 21:48:50 GMT
This round we get to find out who gets Black Vein Prophecy and who doesn't. I don't think it a case of whether you get it or not, but did you enjoy it as much as the others. I certainly didn't.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,680
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 8, 2020 12:46:40 GMT
This round we get to find out who gets Black Vein Prophecy and who doesn't. I don't think it a case of whether you get it or not, but did you enjoy it as much as the others. I certainly didn't. THAT Luck Test aside, if you get it, it's a masterpiece in storytelling. If you don't, it's pretentious drivel. That said, it's not an easy story to understand and it is possible to successfully complete the adventure without actually understanding why certain events happen the way they do. But for the most part, the information is there to be found if you look for it, albeit not always on the optimum path. However, I do agree with anyone who says the catapult bit is stupid and Merzei is a horrible character.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 8, 2020 14:26:51 GMT
THAT Luck Test aside, if you get it, it's a masterpiece in storytelling. If you don't, it's pretentious drivel. That said, it's not an easy story to understand and it is possible to successfully complete the adventure without actually understanding why certain events happen the way they do. But for the most part, the information is there to be found if you look for it, albeit not always on the optimum path. However, I do agree with anyone who says the catapult bit is stupid and Merzei is a horrible character. I think it does have a few other flaws. The battle at the end is way too unforgiving (unless there's a logic to knowing which spells to use that I missed). Also, if you don't go the route the authors meant, sometimes odd things happen like you being made a general with no explanation as to why. Story-wise I agree completely with you (I don't even remember Merzei being particularly horrible), but I can understand why some don't like it as a whole.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 8, 2020 15:45:36 GMT
THAT Luck Test aside, if you get it, it's a masterpiece in storytelling. If you don't, it's pretentious drivel. That said, it's not an easy story to understand and it is possible to successfully complete the adventure without actually understanding why certain events happen the way they do. But for the most part, the information is there to be found if you look for it, albeit not always on the optimum path. However, I do agree with anyone who says the catapult bit is stupid and Merzei is a horrible character. I think it does have a few other flaws. The battle at the end is way too unforgiving (unless there's a logic to knowing which spells to use that I missed). Also, if you don't go the route the authors meant, sometimes odd things happen like you being made a general with no explanation as to why. Story-wise I agree completely with you (I don't even remember Merzei being particularly horrible), but I can understand why some don't like it as a whole. I liked BVP when it came out and would probably like it even more, were I to play it now. But yes - the battle at the end - how are we supposed to know what spells to use? I found that bit frustrating at the time and just cheated if I got it wrong.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 8, 2020 18:07:53 GMT
I remember reading somewhere here that people frequently compare creature of havoc with black vein prophecy. Even not being a big fan of creature of havoc, i consider it way better.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Aug 9, 2020 3:14:32 GMT
I'll probably have to go with The Crimson Tide. It's a very interesting book, with a lot of elaborate false paths and there's no other book quite like it. Unfortunately it's too unforgiving, both in terms of dice rolls and working out what to do. Regarding the dice rolls, it sort of depends on whether or not you need the first code word. When I solved TCT, I had no idea about the first code word, but I was able to work out what to do easily enough because I found all the others. If you forego the first code word, the only other tough rolls are for the fight against the white-faced monk. He can be a bit of a challenge, but you can defeat him in two rounds if you are lucky. I agree about how difficult it is to work out what to do. One could easily stop having fun before figuring it out. I think that's what happened to me with BVP, but somehow I managed to stick with TCT.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2020 6:58:20 GMT
Regarding the dice rolls, it sort of depends on whether or not you need the first code word. When I solved TCT, I had no idea about the first code word, but I was able to work out what to do easily enough because I found all the others. Technically yes you could, but then a lot of the codewords become superfluous you probably only need "king sword 198" to work out what to do. In fact you could probably work out "sword" if you have all the others and have failed a few times after being offered the sword. I'm pretty sure I knew that was the one I was struggling to find. In fact, you could use the metaknowledge of previous attempts to work out the full phrase without encountering any of the words in this particular playthrough. But then you have to consider why Paul Mason put the words where he did - why is it important to the story that your character does the actions that yield the correct codewords and what is it about these actions that allows him/her to see what to do? If any of the codewords (or indeed all of them) are deemed unnecessary then that aspect is lost. Of course even knowing the solution, it's far from clear why Mason expects your character to do all the requisite actions - some might consider that a flaw, but I quite like trying to construct a rationale out of the seeming randomness.
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Post by deadshadowrunner on Aug 9, 2020 10:50:32 GMT
My problem with Black Vein Prophecy is that it only makes sense when you find the true path, with the true path being unobvious assuming one does not have prior knowledge. It becomes a case of bumbling towards the true path, inching ever closer until you go 'oh'. Unfortunately, before finding the true path, there is not much fun to be had, you're just left confused, with choices often leading to illogical or completely unrelated things to occur. Gamebooks should be fun even if you go the wrong way, and not only if you go on the correct path. That is where I think BVP fails as a gamebook, it is simply incoherent until you find the right path. If we were ranking stories if we go on the true path, sure, BVP would be near the top. But we aren't, and it simply can't cover all the flaws it has as a gamebook.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 9, 2020 11:35:48 GMT
Very difficult. MoC for me confusing it with whichever one it is I can never remember. But after then you've got some of my favourite in the entire run. I will go for Moonrunner for two reasons: -the Mask of Belthegor puzzle is far, far, far too easy; -you spend most of the book squishing anything that moves - and yet put Gruul on trial, where he lives. Seems a weird attack of conscience and too preachy. Shame as you have two of the most memorable characters in the book, in Mawn Pretoragus and Margaret Rutherford. My problem with Black Vein Prophecy is that it only makes sense when you find the true path, with the true path being unobvious assuming one does not have prior knowledge. That's surely the point...
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Post by vastariner on Aug 9, 2020 11:39:24 GMT
I liked BVP when it came out and would probably like it even more, were I to play it now. But yes - the battle at the end - how are we supposed to know what spells to use? I found that bit frustrating at the time and just cheated if I got it wrong. There are clues. Look to see what your brother is doing and think what the best way is to counteract it. You know for example that
Biantai plays with the mind, and Tiaohe relaxes it, so the latter counters the former...
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,680
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 9, 2020 12:31:58 GMT
My problem with Black Vein Prophecy is that it only makes sense when you find the true path, with the true path being unobvious assuming one does not have prior knowledge. It becomes a case of bumbling towards the true path, inching ever closer until you go 'oh'. Unfortunately, before finding the true path, there is not much fun to be had, you're just left confused, with choices often leading to illogical or completely unrelated things to occur. Gamebooks should be fun even if you go the wrong way, and not only if you go on the correct path. That is where I think BVP fails as a gamebook, it is simply incoherent until you find the right path. If we were ranking stories if we go on the true path, sure, BVP would be near the top. But we aren't, and it simply can't cover all the flaws it has as a gamebook. As a bit of a counter argument to myself, I would say that it is possible to find the true path AND still not have a clear understanding of what went on. It really is a book you have to read a few times and explore for even the wrong paths tell a lot about the world, its history, its people, and your character. The only other big thing that the story never explains is how Feior rose to power. It would have been interesting to have a spin-off book where YOU are Feior instead of Maior as the journey to power would have been wholly different and by the way Feior talks, he's had a much clearer goal the moment he left the sarcophagus.
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Post by Wilf on Aug 9, 2020 13:11:25 GMT
I remember reading somewhere here that people frequently compare creature of havoc with black vein prophecy. Even not being a big fan of creature of havoc, i consider it way better. It's a ridiculous comparison, because apart from both books starting with you having no idea who you are, they don't have a fat lot in common.
I have lot of time for Black Vein Prophecy, but Creature Of Havoc is (rightly) considered to be one of the very best books in the range - it's a very high bar to set.
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Post by Wilf on Aug 9, 2020 13:23:10 GMT
Regarding the dice rolls, it sort of depends on whether or not you need the first code word. When I solved TCT, I had no idea about the first code word, but I was able to work out what to do easily enough because I found all the others. Technically yes you could, but then a lot of the codewords become superfluous you probably only need "king sword 198" to work out what to do. In fact you could probably work out "sword" if you have all the others and have failed a few times after being offered the sword. I'm pretty sure I knew that was the one I was struggling to find. In fact, you could use the metaknowledge of previous attempts to work out the full phrase without encountering any of the words in this particular playthrough. But then you have to consider why Paul Mason put the words where he did - why is it important to the story that your character does the actions that yield the correct codewords and what is it about these actions that allows him/her to see what to do? If any of the codewords (or indeed all of them) are deemed unnecessary then that aspect is lost. Of course even knowing the solution, it's far from clear why Mason expects your character to do all the requisite actions - some might consider that a flaw, but I quite like trying to construct a rationale out of the seeming randomness. I think I had king offers sword 198 when I first twigged what was going on - the fact that the Puzzler made me work out a number which then appeared not to matter struck me as odd, and very likely unfinished business. After that, I kept replaying until I'd filled in the obvious gaps in the codewords, and then it all made sense.
I thought - and still think - it was one of the cleverest and most inspired ways to hide an option in a gamebook, and I think the world-building, prose style, and very explorable false paths all add to the experience and make it a very replayable book. I had a lot of fun figuring this one out.
In that respect, it's far more comparable to Creature Of Havoc than Black Vein Prophecy is, and it sits alongside Creature in my top three.
But both bow down to the mighty Siege Of Sardath, which is absolutely perfect...
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Post by Wilf on Aug 9, 2020 13:27:58 GMT
If there was one thing I'd do to make the path less obvious, it would be to remove the spaces between the codewords, so that you'd ultimately end up with something like whenk ingo ffer sswo rdtu rnto instead. That would have obscured the true path far more effectively, though it would have upped the difficulty level by an awful lot, too.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2020 16:04:14 GMT
It's a ridiculous comparison, because apart from both books starting with you having no idea who you are, they don't have a fat lot in common I wouldn't say it's all that ridiculous to compare the only two books where you play an amnesiac. Plus they're both hard as nails!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 10, 2020 5:06:06 GMT
I've commented before on the fact that I hit a brick wall with TCT. It's impossible to reconstruct with any accuracy where things went wrong, however... If there was one thing I'd do to make the path less obvious, it would be to remove the spaces between the codewords, so that you'd ultimately end up with something like whenk ingo ffer sswo rdtu rnto instead. That would have obscured the true path far more effectively, though it would have upped the difficulty level by an awful lot, too. ...I'm pretty that this would have made it vastly easier, not harder. Codewords are a familiar idea from many of the FF books. TCT has a good number of them, several of which (from memory: art, never, silk, arena, magic, spider, wood, monk...) have nothing to do with the solution. They are also used in the way that codewords usually are in that you may be asked if you have them, including at least one of the ones which is in the solution (Attack with martial arts? If you have spider, crane, wood or sword on your Adventure Sheet...) 12-year-old me probably wasn't keeping an immaculate Adventure Sheet whilst playing on trains or under desks or the corner of the playground. Stuff which had to be scribbled down like stats and provisions would have ended up in the back of a geography folder, maybe, but I could remember a few codewords. (I remember that I had the unalloyed joy of playing Moonrunner just before this and I'm pretty sure I memorised any I needed to in that.) Having keywords like 'rdtu' and 'rnto' would have been a huge clue as to where to look for what I was missing. I'd probably have tried anagrams to start with, admittedly, and spent some time wondering when the torn t*rds were going to show up, but I'd have got there.
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Post by a moderator on Aug 10, 2020 13:11:50 GMT
The frustrating but still quite good Proteus adventure Boneshaker's Mountains of Forever used a trick like the one Wilf suggests. Had me baffled for a while, because while the likes of 'REND' and 'ISON' could obviously be words or combinations of words, 'EEOU' was such an unlikely combination of letters (except maybe in the final stages of a game of Scrabble that's not going well) that I figured there must be a code or anagram in there. It made sense when I finally managed to get the complete set, though, so I was at last able to proceed to the revelation that there was yet another thing that I needed to have found out before I could win.
And another one after I tracked that down.
Like I said, frustrating.
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