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Post by hynreck on Jul 28, 2015 19:42:35 GMT
Chances are they are magical, to a certain degree ranging between simple messenger of the Gods to "hey, almighty God, when you have a chance, could you come here and unclog my toilet? I mean now, of course".
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 28, 2015 22:02:41 GMT
Magical books from Livingstone: City of Thieves, The island of the Lizard King, Caverns of the Snow Witch, Deathtrap Dungeon, Trial of Champions,Temple of Terror, and Crypt of the Sorcerer. (7 of my 19 magical FF books). Not magical: Forest of Doom, Return to Firetop Mountain, Freeway Fighter, and Armies of Death. (I did not read Legend of Zagor, Eye of the Dragon, and Blood of the Zombies). However, 7 magical books from just one author is something fabulous to me.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 29, 2015 9:40:57 GMT
That's ok, I doubt Ian ever got round to it either
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 29, 2015 12:41:21 GMT
That's ok, I doubt Ian ever got round to it either For what i've heard, Legend of Zagor is defineately not for me - I do not like books when we can choose different characters for the adventurer. That thing almost destroyed the Fabulous FF book which i love and so stongly identify with it - Night of the Necromancer. ( I always ignore that optional part of choosing).
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Post by hynreck on Jul 29, 2015 13:44:46 GMT
Must mess with the immersion...
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 29, 2015 16:21:11 GMT
Well it's not like any of them have a personality as such. They're pretty much all blank slates, the only differences being their stats and advantages and disadvantages.
Of course if you read the Zagor chronicles you can find out about their personalities - Braxus (whiney), Stubble (cranky) and Anvar (dumb). Sallazar is actually dead before the novels begin, his sister Jallarial is the mage of the group. She's a bit of a Mary Sue if memory serves.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 29, 2015 17:03:01 GMT
Just imagine if the second series of Wizard Books FFs had got as far as Crypt. If they'd maintained the habit of adding pre-generated characters... well, it would have been pointless, because even if the pre-gens were all 12-24-12, they'd still have no chance. But I shudder to imagine the outcome if vagsancho were ever to peek in the back of the book.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 29, 2015 17:59:45 GMT
Maybe you could choose to play as Razaak's good twin Kaazar who has 12/24/12 stats, is immune to harpoon flies, paralysis and hurled boulders, uses a mace to smash golems with no chance of stickiness and has the ability to politely turn down that moon ring and ask whether he can have that nice skull ring instead, thank you very much. Surely this would be an opponent even Vag would think worthy of Razaak.
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Post by hynreck on Jul 29, 2015 19:09:57 GMT
I like your idea, Kieran. Hell, you could have the protagonist BE Vagsancho The Mighty, who's goal isn't to destroy Razaak but instead to convert him to his forces of ...whatever, frankly. It does not do good to dwell on whatever it is that Vagsancho considers almighty.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 29, 2015 19:59:42 GMT
I think if Vagsancho was the hero, paragraph 400 could only be reached by smacking Yaztromo over the head and delivering him up to Lord Razaak.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jul 29, 2015 23:35:34 GMT
I like your idea, Kieran. Hell, you could have the protagonist BE Vagsancho The Mighty, who's goal isn't to destroy Razaak but instead to convert him to his forces of ...whatever, frankly. It does not do good to dwell on whatever it is that Vagsancho considers almighty. Perhaps he would force Razaak to teach him how to haul pyramids from the ground by sheer force of will.
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Post by hynreck on Jul 30, 2015 13:56:46 GMT
First step of Vag against enemy of Vag: (ninja) star throw.
Second step: finish them via (reverse, of course) pyramid crush.
I like it. Simple, elegant, efficient.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Aug 6, 2015 22:15:59 GMT
I know this is a little stray of the topic being discussed, and I apologise for such impropriety as discussing the topic of the thread, but Temple of Terror was the first FF book I ever got, and I love it deeply. I'll admit it has its faults. As usual, Ian Livingstone's writing is as evokative as is possible in the bursts available and appropriate in a gamebook, and the creatures and situations are mostly original and thrilling, but like many of Livingstone's books it is too difficult to complete honestly. The atmosphere of this book was one of the things I saught in others, and had I begun with another I'm not sure I would have continued to collect FF books.
The cover of Temple of Terror with the serpent guard at the gates of Vatos feels like a classic to me. When I read this book, it was my first foray into gamebooks and role-playing, but I'd read Lord of the Rings, so encountering an orc, even a mutant one, had an immediate impact on me, but it isn't an appropriate subject for the book's cover.
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Post by hynreck on Aug 7, 2015 13:05:13 GMT
Are you apologising for bringing back this topic on course? Please don't, it's fine; it is us who stray.
My biggest complaint with Temple of Terror remains the fact that even if you find 4 out of 5 artifacts you still fail completely. I was under the impression that Malbordus needed all five to win (I might be remembering wrong) so it feels a bit like cheating when he takes off triumphantly at the end, while you are left there hanging with 4 of those things in your pockets. At the very least, you could have frustrate him and ensure he'd be far less of a threat, what with only one dragon to wreak havoc and all that.
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nicodemus
Squire
Posts: 20
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy and Sorcery!
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Post by nicodemus on Aug 7, 2015 17:51:08 GMT
I don't consider this to be a very dificult book. I made it to 400 in three attempts. And with no cheating. The second attempt was crucial cause I made it with 3 statues to the end (needed 2 more dragon statues), and I've drawn a very good map that allowed me in my third attempt to reach the areas I haven't explored and also avoiding the letters of the Ripper.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 7, 2015 18:15:25 GMT
Magical Book. I love this book. A brutal realism. Sometimes I still feel thirsty when I think of what I have passed in that desert. The talent of Livingstone was growing - it was born still small with the Forest of Doom, have grown up very high with the Temple of Terror and it would reach the maximum exuberance with the creation of the Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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nicodemus
Squire
Posts: 20
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy and Sorcery!
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Post by nicodemus on Aug 7, 2015 22:57:44 GMT
Magical by Companion for Gamers"> Book. I love this book. A brutal realism. Sometimes I still feel thirsty when I think of what I have passed in that desert. The talent of Livingstone was growing - it was born still small with the Forest of Doom, have grown up very high with the Temple of Terror and it would reach the maximum exuberance with the creation of the Crypt of the Sorcerer. Vag you talk so much about the Crypt of the Sorcerer that I feel compelled to pick it up again and give it another try. Didn't finish it yet... this one is pretty hard. But not as hard as Chasms of Malice, insanely difficult, only with cheating. Dice rolls and luck tests are ridiculously unfair.
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Post by deadshadowrunner on Aug 8, 2015 12:09:10 GMT
Are you sure?Chasms of Malice is a walk in the park,even with One Strike Combat,as compared to Crypt of the Sorceror.
Champskees suggests a 9+ Skill and 10+ Luck for Chasms,whereas you can forget about winning unless you play about one thousand times even if you roll max stats in Crypt.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 8, 2015 15:18:24 GMT
Magical by Companion for Gamers"> Book. I love this book. A brutal realism. Sometimes I still feel thirsty when I think of what I have passed in that desert. The talent of Livingstone was growing - it was born still small with the Forest of Doom, have grown up very high with the Temple of Terror and it would reach the maximum exuberance with the creation of the Crypt of the Sorcerer. Vag you talk so much about the Crypt of the Sorcerer that I feel compelled to pick it up again and give it another try. Didn't finish it yet... this one is pretty hard. But not as hard as Chasms of Malice, insanely difficult, only with cheating. Dice rolls and luck tests are ridiculously unfair. Are you sure?Chasms of Malice is a walk in the park,even with One Strike Combat,as compared to Crypt of the Sorcerer. Champskees suggests a 9+ Skill and 10+ Luck for Chasms,whereas you can forget about winning unless you play about one thousand times even if you roll max stats in Crypt. Yes, to be precise Champskees reckoned that playing with a walkthrough in hand and only 12/24/12 characters would yield a win about 3 times per 1000 plays.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 17, 2015 21:25:59 GMT
Making a little pause between my philosophy readings, i have played and I won today the Temple of Terror. Good Feeling. Dry book. So much dryness. The Desert of Skulls and Vatos - so much dryness. Very good book. Magical. Malbordus is not a charismatic man, though.
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Post by stevendoig on Aug 31, 2015 20:51:01 GMT
Why is Malbordus not charismatic to you Vag?
Do you feel the author perhaps missed a trick in not making him a wee bit dead and having a distinct lack of necromancing powers?
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jun 11, 2019 13:56:58 GMT
Dang this book surprised me. After Freeway Fighter my hopes werent high but I had a really good time with this. I greatly enjoy trying out the different combinations of spells/items to see what works where. Plus I really enjoyed the setting, both desert and Vatos itself. The desert setting has always been one of my favorites. As others have said though, there are some story elements that dont really hold up on further reflection. As Hynreck pointed out above, once you got the very first artefact, couldnt you have just booted it out of there? Malbordus needed all 5. And if you needed the warhammer why the heck didnt Yaztromo send it with you in the first place? Im just picturing him sitting at his old oak desk sipping his tea the next day after you left then all of a sudden spitting it across the room as he remembers that key piece of information. That poor dwarf he sent to bring it to you paid dearly for that blunder. Wizards in these books are really made out to be doddering fools. lol
The encounters within Vatos were pretty varied and interesting I thought. Although some of them maybe a bit of filler. You need a decent Skill score obviously to make it past the Sandworm, at which point the fights against the flies, ratmen, and sword hands seem like a bit of pointless dice rolling as they can barely touch you. The Messenger of Death was a great idea although once you know where any of the letters are you can just avoid them. Once I knew about the letter behind the grate I guess that was it for him as a threat? Maybe this would have worked better if every time you rolled double ones in combat or something you would receive a letter? Do that 5 times and your number is up so to speak? Or if that happens you have to go fight him then return to what you were doing? I guess I really liked the idea just wished it was implemented a bit better. Complaints aside though, overall I really enjoyed this one.
By the way, does the goblet with the heart in it actually do anything? From where it was located on the map I figured it must do something but it never came up again.
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Post by zoove on Sept 22, 2020 13:36:52 GMT
I’ve been trying to finish this book for a little while now and really enjoying it but for the life of me could not find that final crystal dragon. So after mapping the whole thing and checking every nook and cranny I had to look at the solution.
Spoiler ahead...
What irks me about the thing you need to get to trade for it, is that it requires you to fall for what is obviously going to be an ambush and then fight and kill bandits to acquire it. I thought I was being clever using my smarts to avoid trap in a city renowned for them but instead was penalised for not walking into trouble. Just feels like the book should reward smart thinking not blundering into ambushes.
That aside, enjoyed this thoroughly and certainly got my money’s worth in time spent playing it. Just got tedious when I got caught in a loop of trying to find that last dragon.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Oct 10, 2020 9:25:33 GMT
What irks me about the thing you need to get to trade for it, is that it requires you to fall for what is obviously going to be an ambush and then fight and kill bandits to acquire it. I thought I was being clever using my smarts to avoid trap in a city renowned for them but instead was penalised for not walking into trouble. Just feels like the book should reward smart thinking not blundering into ambushes. That aside, enjoyed this thoroughly and certainly got my money’s worth in time spent playing it. Just got tedious when I got caught in a loop of trying to find that last dragon. This highlights a difference between how it feels to play a gamebook and how one thinks when writing one. It's surprising how often, when hiding important objects or information in a gamebook, one begins to look at choices as just numbered references to be checked off or blundered into, without asking oneself how a player might feel about the choices required to visit those references. It's perhaps a worthy topic for discussion, if a thread doesn't already exist. Should we think badly of a book for rewarding dumb behaviour? Or is the point to explore all available choices?
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Post by schlendrian on Oct 12, 2020 14:18:01 GMT
Clearly the first one for me. A certain amount of exploration should ofc be mandatory, but in the end I want to look back on the adventure and say, that I came to success through actions that were neither obviously stupid nor morally detestable (of which Livingstone book am I thinking right now?)
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Post by daredevil123 on Oct 12, 2020 15:02:16 GMT
Crypt, right? Mind you, that's hardly the biggest problem with that book...
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Post by schlendrian on Oct 12, 2020 17:22:47 GMT
Right. Still bugs me, though.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 9, 2022 14:07:25 GMT
Classic Livingstone. Learning spells was great. I always like a character who can both use weapons and magic.
I like the Stonebridge hammer callback, especially as the background could be interpreted that you were the adventurer that found the hammer in the first place. You save the hammer, then the hammer saves you.
Malbordus is not over the top powerful. In fact, if you have the item to cancel Malbordus's spell, the sandworm is more powerful. It's probably still impossible for a skill 7 or 8 character but a skill 9 character has a chance of winning. So, the lack of impossible foes is a plus. Something Ian seemed to forget about in later books.
I got frustrated that the land route does not get you a vital item, sentencing you to death, but only after you have done pretty much all of the adventure. That is the worst kind of instadeath - the drawn out instadeath.
I always wish that I could have used the magical silver sceptre or whatever it was that the one eyed monster was using, but you can't. Why can't heroes use all the cool items?
I didn't like that you lose your magic at a certain point. Was that because the spell options got too complicated? I would have loved to try to magic dark Malbordus (he probably would have countered it, but still, it would have been nice to have the option).
Otherwise, a fun book with a nice atmosphere.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Jul 13, 2022 14:16:26 GMT
I need to read the original version of this book - the translated version was filled with mistakes, especially on the spellcasting costs. Otherwise I like this one.
The golden shower (erm...) that makes you lose your prepubescent spellcasting skills may account for the fact that, in Crypt of the Sorcerer, you have no ability for casting spells - that is, if we assume that the character for both books is one and the same.
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 8, 2022 15:59:48 GMT
I like Temple Of Terror a lot - I like gamebooks, or any books, with Eastern themes, and I like the Indiana Jones films. I prefer gamebooks with a simpler structure, with magic, with memorable encounters and some length and medium difficulty. But with apologies to Livingstone purists, Temple of Terror is too tough. The Sandworm fight is a hard one - it 'sorts the wheat from the chaff' by being an early fight, which I appreciate. The Night Horror will just finish any adventure unless they are ridiculously lucky in their fight against it. And Malbordus is tough as well, I'm in two minds whether he should be marginally weaker than the Sandworm (one of your first enemies). I don't know if those things could be changed in an alternative version of the gamebook - I don't see why there shouldn't be official revised altered versions of the gamebook for the more than 50% of us who don't prefer to cheat like an applicant for the Guild Of Thieves, as there are for other series. In fact it's almost irritating there are lots of reprints of classic FF which don't take the opportunity to amend the text (it would be, if it weren't for the numerous reprints being pointless).
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