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Post by Charles X. on Jul 19, 2021 13:47:01 GMT
Ever tried A.I dungeon? - tremendous fun and I'm sure you could convince it be be an ff book! I tried A.I. Dungeon (following your suggestion) and found it more surreal than enjoyable. On a 5 minute play through my character killed a King in one blow. The gameplay difficulty is comparable to Starship Traveller (that is, there's none).
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jul 19, 2021 17:15:23 GMT
Seriously unoriginal. A computer program could construct a better FF. One day someone will appear on this site with a computer program which will construct FFs. They will be the biggest hit since Tamagotchis. Not a computer program but I believe this is almost what the "Four Against Darkness" series does. Use dice to generate random dungeon, then dice again to fill rooms with random monsters and treasure. I also noticed this series is listed on gamebooks.org, but I wonder if people here would consider it a gamebook or a board game.
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 18, 2021 21:16:26 GMT
I have not read the original EOTD this below-average gamebook was adapted from, contained within Dicing With Dragons which I likewise have not seen, I was wondering about how the two compare? If EOTD is intended as an example of an RPG, then it is not a very good one - it demonstrates the bare bones of the rules with many cliches and a real lack of imagination 😋.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Nov 18, 2021 23:07:32 GMT
I have not read the original EOTD this below-average gamebook was adapted from, contained within Dicing With Dragons which I likewise have not seen, I was wondering about how the two compare? The original is worse. You get to choose between two linear paths at the start. Once you get to the end of the wrong one, you get teleported back to the start, losing everything you picked up and suffering a heavy stats penalty to boot, meaning you stand no chance of now succeeding. May as well have put an instant death at the end of the path. This can still happen in the new version, but it is avoidable, making both paths viable. It was intended to show how gamebooks function. At the time the only published FF book was Warlock of Firetop Mountain so one shouldn't be too harsh about lack of innovation.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 9, 2022 23:25:48 GMT
Okay so I finished my first play through of this last night. I had a couple of close calls (one hit away from being paralysed by a ghoul, 1 stamina point remaining when I slew the doppelganger) and got through to the golden statue... but no eye. Fail.
I think the criticisms I've seen on this are a little over harsh. Yeah it's quite primitive and maybe for something this deep into the series maybe we could have expected something a little more dynamic, but I honestly didn't mind this old fashioned dungeon crawl. It's certainly not significantly worse than, say, forest of doom, and if it slotted in the series in the first 10 books I think it would have fit in just fine
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Post by terrysalt on Aug 10, 2022 0:35:49 GMT
Okay so I finished my first play through of this last night. I had a couple of close calls (one hit away from being paralysed by a ghoul, 1 stamina point remaining when I slew the doppelganger) and got through to the golden statue... but no eye. Fail. I think the criticisms I've seen on this are a little over harsh. Yeah it's quite primitive and maybe for something this deep into the series maybe we could have expected something a little more dynamic, but I honestly didn't mind this old fashioned dungeon crawl. It's certainly not significantly worse than, say, forest of doom, and if it slotted in the series in the first 10 books I think it would have fit in just fine I think a lot of it is the expectation people had for it not being met. It was the first new FF in something like a decade and people were excited. Then what we got fell way short of what we'd built up in our minds and the result was EotD being one of the most scorned books in the series. Evaluating it on its own merits, I still think it's Livingstone following the same boring old formula he's always had but I've not liked Ian's books since Temple of Terror.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 17, 2022 4:33:48 GMT
I just glanced at my son's adventure sheet as he's just aboutto meet Liitlebig. Skill 17 Stamina 26
Can't go past your initial scores? Says who? I think he wants to fight that Black Dragon
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IoannesKantakouzenos
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Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Aug 24, 2022 14:41:00 GMT
I have the same problem with this book that I have with, well, pretty much every dungeon-themed book - WoFTM, FoD, CoC (excluding DD and ToC for obvious reasons) - Why are all those creatures there? Has a superior mind designed all those corridors and stuffed them with Orcs, Trolls, traps, keys, even a ruddy Dragon, just to guard a single Golden Dragon statue (despite the obvious fortune it represents)? What is the logic behind it? At the end, the convenient coincidence of the final room, the treasure room, having a secret passage opening up to the outside world - where your nemesis is conveniently waiting because it would be too much consuming to have you returning to the Blue Pig Tavern à là CoTSW.
Who knows, maybe I'm just being harsh at this book and should just enjoy it like mindless fun. Trying to shut down the brain is such a drag...
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 24, 2022 14:58:19 GMT
I have the same problem with this book that I have with, well, pretty much every dungeon-themed book - WoFTM, FoD, CoC (excluding DD and ToC for obvious reasons) - Why are all those creatures there? Has a superior mind designed all those corridors and stuffed them with Orcs, Trolls, traps, keys, even a ruddy Dragon, just to guard a single Golden Dragon statue (despite the obvious fortune it represents)? What is the logic behind it? At the end, the convenient coincidence of the final room, the treasure room, having a secret passage opening up to the outside world - where your nemesis is conveniently waiting because it would be too much consuming to have you returning to the Blue Pig Tavern à là CoTSW.
Who knows, maybe I'm just being harsh at this book and should just enjoy it like mindless fun. Trying to shut down the brain is such a drag...
Eye Of The Dragon is easily the worst offender in this regard - it's old-fashioned, and fighting Sharcle is anticlimactic -and as for the others, you could just say D & D is mindless fun. Why are there so many planets with aliens in Star Trek? Why does Doctor Who's The Doctor just happen to visit 20th to 21st century Earth so often?
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IoannesKantakouzenos
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Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Aug 24, 2022 16:13:12 GMT
Why are there so many planets with aliens in Star Trek? And why are the aliens always so alike humans with a head and two arms and five fingers in each hand, their planets always have atmospheres similar to ours'... Fiction is always illogical.
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Post by slloyd14 on Aug 24, 2022 21:06:24 GMT
Why are there so many planets with aliens in Star Trek? And why are the aliens always so alike humans with a head and two arms and five fingers in each hand, their planets always have atmospheres similar to ours'... Fiction is always illogical. Budget.
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Post by slloyd14 on Aug 24, 2022 21:07:31 GMT
I have the same problem with this book that I have with, well, pretty much every dungeon-themed book - WoFTM, FoD, CoC (excluding DD and ToC for obvious reasons) - Why are all those creatures there? Has a superior mind designed all those corridors and stuffed them with Orcs, Trolls, traps, keys, even a ruddy Dragon, just to guard a single Golden Dragon statue (despite the obvious fortune it represents)? What is the logic behind it? At the end, the convenient coincidence of the final room, the treasure room, having a secret passage opening up to the outside world - where your nemesis is conveniently waiting because it would be too much consuming to have you returning to the Blue Pig Tavern à là CoTSW.
Who knows, maybe I'm just being harsh at this book and should just enjoy it like mindless fun. Trying to shut down the brain is such a drag...
Some of WOFTM is down to the creatures being Zagor's guards. CoC is full of Dire's army which is a bunch of chaotics. FoD is pretty random. But yes, most dungeon crawls are super random.
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Post by misomiso on Aug 25, 2022 17:23:41 GMT
I think the reader REALLY apprecietes though when there is 'world consistency' in Dungeon design, that's one of the reasons why Deathtrap Dungeon is so well received I think.
It's similar to undermountain in Forgotten Realms as well, as the reason that is the way it is is because of the Mad Mage restocking stuff, and for things like GW's Blackstone fortress.
I personally really like the narrative consistency that comes from having the Dungeon 'make sense'.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 25, 2022 17:50:51 GMT
And why are the aliens always so alike humans with a head and two arms and five fingers in each hand, their planets always have atmospheres similar to ours'... Fiction is always illogical. Budget. In fairness, one of my favourite Star Trek episodes is one where the alien is a big blob wreaking havoc in mines, although such aliens were rather rare. I recall reading somewhere the Star Trek makers had a choice of all sorts of outlandish make-up for Spock, and in the end went with pointy ears and raised eyebrows - budget, like you say.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 25, 2022 18:52:55 GMT
Why are there so many planets with aliens in Star Trek? And why are the aliens always so alike humans with a head and two arms and five fingers in each hand, their planets always have atmospheres similar to ours'... Fiction is always illogical. Convergent evolution. There are only so many solutions to intelligent life; on Earth, the one species that has got so far as to manipulate fire is the only species with two arms and two legs with specialist arm/leg functions, and a disproportionately large brain. So makes sense other planets might get to the same solution too.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 25, 2022 20:27:12 GMT
And why are the aliens always so alike humans with a head and two arms and five fingers in each hand, their planets always have atmospheres similar to ours'... Fiction is always illogical. Convergent evolution. There are only so many solutions to intelligent life; on Earth, the one species that has got so far as to manipulate fire is the only species with two arms and two legs with specialist arm/leg functions, and a disproportionately large brain. So makes sense other planets might get to the same solution too. Possibly, or failure of imagination. Our species has many defects of course, such as a proportionately long time being a young person under our parents care. Stephen Hawking suggested any aliens we encounter would probably be far more advanced than us. This whole thread reminds me of The Outer Limits episode The Sixth Finger, in which a human being advanced entire thousands of years of evolution via machine develops a sixth finger, even telekenisis. As we've said it's all prosaic, we know aliens might have four arms or be ten feet tall or have four eyes but a 50 minute TV show doesn't have the resources let alone the intent to portray these things. Thread drift. This isn't even a Sci-fi FF.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 25, 2022 21:08:14 GMT
Convergent evolution. There are only so many solutions to intelligent life; on Earth, the one species that has got so far as to manipulate fire is the only species with two arms and two legs with specialist arm/leg functions, and a disproportionately large brain. So makes sense other planets might get to the same solution too. Possibly, or failure of imagination. Our species has many defects of course, such as a proportionately long time being a young person under our parents care. Which is BECAUSE of the big brain. Gestation cannot be as long as with other species otherwise no baby would ever be able to pop out.
Which also explains why humans are genetically programmed to live for two generations minimum. So that grandparents can look after kids when the parents are out hunting and gathering. Most species have a long juvenile period and a brief adult avatar when they basically breed and die (the mayfly being the extreme example); however protohumans would be expected to live to 40-50 if they got past childhood, therefore 20 years past "regular" parentage (earlier maturity with a shorter life expectancy), so that the old 'uns could look after the young 'uns.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 25, 2022 23:47:24 GMT
Eye of the Dragon is clearly one of those books where you turn the logic part of your brain off and just enjoy the ride. My son really enjoyed it. He finished the book on his first go (yes ignoring the rule around not exceeding your initial skill helped) and the bit he loved most was killing Monsters and finding lots of stuff. Yes, writing out a huge inventory of stuff found was fun for him.
The only other book he has read is Bloodbones, which he hasn't liked so far because 1. Not a lot of treasure to be found on each baddie killed, and 2. Did not feel like he was progressing (lots of dead ends in his enquiries).
So in terms I'd appealing to kids, I think Eye hit its mark
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kieran
Baron
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Post by kieran on Aug 26, 2022 8:55:47 GMT
So in terms I'd appealing to kids, I think Eye hit its mark I think sometimes we miss that these books are primarily aimed at 10 year olds. There are certainly books that I like now that I disliked as a child and there are ones I loved as a child that I don't really rate now. Space Assassin used to be a Top 10 book for me for instance.
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Post by Pickler on Sept 3, 2022 5:01:45 GMT
I think if EotD had been released as one of the first 10 books, it would have been the weakest among them. I still found it fun, as I'm a sucker for the nostalgia of remembering when I was 9 years old and a room with a goblin and a locked chest absolutely gripped my imagination.
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Post by evilwizard on Oct 9, 2022 15:01:05 GMT
I think people are being too harsh on this book. It is an old school dungeon and there is nothing wrong with that. It's probably why it is one of my favourites.
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 9, 2022 18:53:06 GMT
I think people are being too harsh on this book. It is an old school dungeon and there is nothing wrong with that. It's probably why it is one of my favourites. In many ways any problem isn't with the concept itself, as out point out, just the way it is executed - the choices to attack shopkeepers, anticlimactic end fight, the boss enemy ripped out of House Of Hell. I suspect probably more than one instant death could be done away with and there would be no complaints. To me it almost reads like a "lost Fighting Fantasy" found from the mid 80s, because at that time readers didn't have the expectation or the enjoyment they have from gamebooks and other non-linear works they do nowadays.
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Post by slloyd14 on Oct 9, 2022 19:50:06 GMT
I think people are being too harsh on this book. It is an old school dungeon and there is nothing wrong with that. It's probably why it is one of my favourites. In many ways any problem isn't with the concept itself, as out point out, just the way it is executed - the choices to attack shopkeepers, anticlimactic end fight, the boss enemy ripped out of House Of Hell. I suspect probably more than one instant death could be done away with and there would be no complaints. To me it almost reads like a "lost Fighting Fantasy" found from the mid 80s, because at that time readers didn't have the expectation or the enjoyment they have from gamebooks and other non-linear works they do nowadays.
It was originally a mini adventure for Dicing With Dragons from 1982 that got extended, so the "lost Fighting Fantasy" feel is well founded. fightingfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Dragon_(book)#Creation
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Post by evilwizard on Oct 9, 2022 20:27:19 GMT
I think people are being too harsh on this book. It is an old school dungeon and there is nothing wrong with that. It's probably why it is one of my favourites. In many ways any problem isn't with the concept itself, as out point out, just the way it is executed - the choices to attack shopkeepers, anticlimactic end fight, the boss enemy ripped out of House Of Hell. I suspect probably more than one instant death could be done away with and there would be no complaints. To me it almost reads like a "lost Fighting Fantasy" found from the mid 80s, because at that time readers didn't have the expectation or the enjoyment they have from gamebooks and other non-linear works they do nowadays.
These are some of the things I like about it. They make as much sense as say Dire letting you leisurely rip his curtains open after leaving vital information lying around for you to discover and the Gangees politely waiting for you to dig into your backpack for the item that can stop them, and these don't stop Citadel of Chaos from being good.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 27, 2022 10:46:07 GMT
and the Gangees politely waiting for you to dig into your backpack for the item that can stop them I like to think that as the Gangees staring at "us" thinking amusingly "What is this fool going to take away from the backpack? Let's see what it is" and waiting curiously for us to retrieve whatever it is we choose. No idea what is their fascination with Ointment of Healing, though.
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Per
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Post by Per on Oct 11, 2023 20:29:17 GMT
While we're eagerly anticipating the results of the rare entries contest, here's my review of Eye of the Dragon, completely unedited from when it was written circa 2012, including a first paragraph meant to be mirrored in my still unfinished review of Twist of Fate.
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FF reissue 21: Eye of the Dragon
Bla bla Ian Livingstone bla bla lazy and nonsensical bla bla Fighting Fantasy bla bla razor-sharp sphere bla bla Martin McKenna woo bla bla. End review.
Sometimes it could be that easy to write a gamebook review, but perhaps for once it wouldn't really be fair. Even if you can line up ridiculous moments by the dozens, and even if Eye of the Dragon is, by design or happenstance, a less than glorious self-parody, is there any reason to be amazed and enraged by these facts? Can't we just stop thinking so much and enjoy what's on offer? No, we can't, and not just because the book sucks, but because of the cynical context in which it performs its jolly suckage.
I don't know whose idea it was that Ian Livingstone should put out another book after all these years and that this was the way it should be done, but if he decided to churn out some of the same old to get some editor off his back, instead of rolling up his sleeves and renewing his grasp of the craft for the sake of a single book, that may be as respectable an explanation for Eye of the Dragon as we could possibly get. I'm afraid I don't believe the publisher would have cared much either way: the author's name on the cover was what was going to sell this one.
Eye of the Dragon was originally a mini-adventure of 134 paragraphs published 1982 in the Dicing with Dragons introduction to role-playing games, written by Ian Livingstone and illustrated by Russ Nicholson. This dungeon, heavily edited and restructured in terms of rules and paragraphs, now forms roughly the first half of the "brand new adventure" Eye of the Dragon. It's not that I think that threading this kind of do-you-open-the-door, do-you-attack-the-troll, do-you-open-the-chest encounters is necessarily the best way to show kids the potential of role-playing, but at least in the age of Warlock of Firetop Mountain it would have had a certain logic and a certain charm.
Make no mistake, though: the 2005 book has sprung from the same pen as Armies of Death and Return to Firetop Mountain and the charm is now as thin as the spectre of Titan that's been stapled onto the old plot. Attempts here and there to provide the labyrinth with a sliver of a context just keep you aware of the fact that none of it makes any sense nor serves any purpose. The impression of listlessness is exaggerated by several errors and incongruities with regard to adapting the old text (for instance, due to some less than thorough editing you can still see where the main treasure was originally to be found).
Regarded as an original creation, Eye of the Dragon offers few surprises. The Livingstone does enjoy vomiting bone necklaces, brass bells, silver coins and the odd clove of garlic over your Adventure Sheet, and here he's really outdone himself, given the spectacular amount of items that do nothing except consume ink and paper. The difficulty level is on the same level as his previous couple of books, and I don't know if it's right and proper to use the word "thankfully" to describe this state of affairs, but I guess that's where we are. There are some oh-my-you-wore-the-necklace instant deaths and a couple of enemies that push your combined Skill and Luck requirement into the 23-24 range, but it should be possible to finish the adventure in some seven or eight attempts if you persevere.
Bullet pointage:
* The rules say you will be told how to fight multiple opponents, but this is not true. The way I understand it, the book expects you to roll and calculate an Attack Strength for each creature involved in a battle, and if its AS is greater than that of the creature it's attacking, it scores a hit. So for instance in 57 you would roll once for yourself and once for each snake head (and which head you attacked would be decided before rolling).
* There are some other problems related to fighting with your companion Littlebig. 35, 137 and 269 should say that his Skill is 8 (when I first got to 35 I guessed I should use my own, which had been dropped to 5 or so). 320 says Littlebig won't be fighting with you as he hasn't yet acquired a weapon, but he will fight in several places after that even though you may never see him pick anything up, and in addition to this he explicitly or implicitly sports a dagger in 104, a sword in 130 and a warhammer in 341. The only weapons you can actually see him pick up are a pair of daggers and/or a battleaxe. Maybe he pulls all these weapons from the same place he gets the food in 314 and the "herbs and potions" in 349 despite having been tortured and hung half-naked in a prison cell for five days.
* A few notes that might be helpful to confused mappers: If you go left in 59 you are told there is another left turn, and vice versa; this should be changed in both places so that after the second turn you're moving away from the entrance, not back towards it. 354 should probably contain a right-hand turn, to keep you going generally "north" and to match the two mentions of fireballs missing you and immediately hitting "the end of the corridor", which should otherwise be well out of sight. Somewhere between 286 and 265 there should be an additional left-hand turn in order to match up with the other path and also to keep you going "north".
* Mostly technical notes (i.e. nothing resembling an attempt to comprehensively catalogue the book's prodigious array of hand-waves and ass-pulls): The word "luck" should not be printed in small capitals in 258. 302 doesn't mention whether you should reset your starting gold, and it's a bit odd that you don't get to pick up the axe head given that you apparently retain your memories (spoiler: it doesn't matter). 329 shows a shopkeeper using a chalkboard to write in Comic Sans, which is not OK. 142 should not imply that both Skeletons have helmets. In section 123 you gain 4 Stamina for eating from an abundance of food until you are full, but can then immediately eat any amount of your own Provisions. What happens after 313 makes no allowances for the fact that you may have killed your enemy. One instant death involves a monster that comes "seeking revenge", but you may not have encountered it (could be someone from a previous adventure, I guess). The condition for ending the fight in 49 is silly because after winning two Attack Rounds you could have inflicted 2 points of damage or 8, yet what follows is what (in the Fighting Fantasy abstraction) should happen after winning a fight in the normal fashion. You can lose 2 Skill points for losing your sword, but there's no instruction to restore these points if you find a new one, meaning if you later find a magic sword that raises your Skill by 1, you're still down 1 point; is the experience of walking around with a toy sword that traumatizing? (The original adventure didn't use Skill, but that's hardly an excuse.) 96 says you lose your gold, but doesn't actually explain where it ends up or why you can't retrieve it, and the fact that you can then loot the Wizard for a fixed number of coins clears up nothing. 61 and 275 are basically the same paragraph, and also send out the dubious message that old men should be attacked for the way they smell. 347 should probably point to 238 instead of 94, since you never fought the Ghost. 94 is funny if you for instance imagine that your owl painting but not a single little crappy thing made of brass or copper or silver drops out of the "small hole" in your backpack. 135 asks if you have Stinger Leaves, which cannot be found under that name; I assume this refers to the dried leaves you find in 37.
In no small part thanks to Martin McKenna's illustrations, it might seem at first that Eye of the Dragon would have a shot at the same 4 out of 10 rating I've given to the previous two Livingstone titles. But then, the pervading laziness, the unnecessary paperwork, the sections wasted on unlikely and pointless happenings, and various other failings all weigh in the other direction, and rather make me wonder if I've been too generous in the past. In closing I'll just mention one of those fine facepalming moments, only partially caused by failure to properly adapt the existing material. At the end of the adventure, when you find the "metre-high solid gold dragon", a coordinated effort from two people is sufficient to lift it down from a plinth onto the floor, which is sort of not believable to begin with, but at least acknowledges that such a piece would be heavy and unwieldy. Then when that's done, you simply flop the dragon into your backpack along with the two million useless items already in it, skipping lightly onwards and straight out of the realm of authorial giving a damn.
Rating: 2/10
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kieran
Baron
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Post by kieran on Oct 11, 2023 21:59:02 GMT
Can't really argue with too much with anything there even if I do think this book isn't completely without merit. The actual dungeon design for Eye of the Dragon is good - there are multiple paths through it which link together in somewhat creative ways and there is a bit of variety in which keys to go for. It's just a pity Ian decided to populate this decent dungeon design with the generic and nonsensical.
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 12, 2023 15:52:12 GMT
In no small part thanks to Martin McKenna's illustrations, it might seem at first that Eye of the Dragon would have a shot at the same 4 out of 10 rating I've given to the previous two Livingstone titles. But then, the pervading laziness, the unnecessary paperwork, the sections wasted on unlikely and pointless happenings, and various other failings all weigh in the other direction, and rather make me wonder if I've been too generous in the past. In closing I'll just mention one of those fine facepalming moments, only partially caused by failure to properly adapt the existing material. At the end of the adventure, when you find the "metre-high solid gold dragon", a coordinated effort from two people is sufficient to lift it down from a plinth onto the floor, which is sort of not believable to begin with, but at least acknowledges that such a piece would be heavy and unwieldy. Then when that's done, you simply flop the dragon into your backpack along with the two million useless items already in it, skipping lightly onwards and straight out of the realm of authorial giving a damn. Rating: 2/10 Port Of Peril and Assassins Of Allansia are OK, probably good concepts that are affected by a number of technical errors and mediocre execution. I felt enthusiastic at some of the encounters and at the adventure itself even if they were definitely not Livingstone's best, and had many of his awful tropes. I didn't get that enjoyment and spirit from Eye Of The Dragon; instead I got the feeling it's very old-school, undistinguished story * might * have been * mediocre * in the mid-eighties when it was published, but this isn't the 1980s, and really good writers are level or ahead of the curve instead of behind it. What you've written is correct, the number of technical errors and heavy mediocrity make this an entry that's as low as Chasms Of Malice or Sky Lord, because it came across as a cash-in where say Caverns Of The Snow Witch and Trial Of Champions had a story to tell.
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