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Post by a moderator on Jun 10, 2022 18:39:06 GMT
-that you have no provisions is mental, and suggests Morris completely forgot about restoring stamina. In-universe you would be provided with SOME kit... The rules state 'Your backpack contains enough Provisions for ten meals'. There are a couple of occasions where you can or must give Provisions to someone else, and it's also possible to gain Provisions at least once.
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 10, 2022 19:02:35 GMT
OK, signs that this is not an FF book, but one adapted into the universe: T -it's a brand new area, so there is no mythology/backstory to incorporate; -Mortis is the sort of name you give to a baddie in Knightmare, not FF; -you start with no equipment, so it's basically for a series where having gold is irrelevant (you can buy drinks at the start, for instance); -that you have no provisions is mental, and suggests Morris completely forgot about restoring stamina. In-universe you would be provided with SOME kit... That's one of the problems with The Keep Of The Lich-Lord, it's perversely so independent and intelligent - that is what Dave Morris wanted to write - it does away with the normal rules of FF, and in the process becomes one of the bottom tier FFs. The heavy difficulty level we often find annoying isn't present, nor even a challenging one. The sadism of say Steve Jackson is replaced with a highly-skilled tone which feels unusual in FF. The semi-sandbox model which would work so well elsewhere such as Fabled Lands or Knightmare plays and feels off. In defence of Dave's Keep you can spend gold a few times, which is in contrast to FFs where you accumulate masses of gp with barely the chance to spend anything ( Caverns Of The Snow Witch, there might well be others).
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 10, 2022 19:56:48 GMT
You can indeed acquire and spend gold later on. Though it does raise the question of how you can pay for drinks at the start.
If the book was a bit differently structured it would probably be one of my favourites: there's so many nice little touches - the guards betting on whether you survive, the centaur who offers you a lift then regrets it, all the tricks Captain Jarmesh plays.
As it is though it's essentially one long corridor where you can turn off every now and again to do a subquest. Maybe if it allowed you to head east along the north coast from Menela to Port Borgos or south along the west coast to Keladon, bypassing the Inn - which might then be swarming with vampires when you finally head inland.
I also think you shouldn't be able to kill Mortis so easily - it should require a combination of at least two of the Spear of Qadarnai, visiting Whistlestone Tor, the Ring of Fays and the Charm of Disruption. Then players would have to think more about which subquests to do.
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Post by tyrion on Jun 10, 2022 21:39:40 GMT
Dave Morris submitted several ideas to puffin, and kotll was the one accepted. Even the author admits it's not his favourite.
The prose is still excellent, even if the gameplay is not.
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 10, 2022 23:29:22 GMT
Dave Morris submitted several ideas to puffin, and kotll was the one accepted. Even the author admits it's not his favourite. The prose is still excellent, even if the gameplay is not. Reading You Are The Hero developed my previous suspicion Puffin were too disdainful, stupid even, in their treatment of Fighting Fantasy. Leaving aside the oft-mentioned numerous errors in the gamebooks (I still don't know whether to blame the author or the editor, but I'll take a safe bet there was zero free proofreading), what kind of knowledge of Fighting Fantasy do they have to ask for the entire past Fighting Fantasy series to be made into 300 reference versions? I don't know whether Puffin made the right call on whether to publish the right FF, or when to end the series. I don't know if Wizard does either, I know I moan sometimes about Eye Of The Dragon, but as someone else pointed out, can you imagine something so poor would be chosen to be published if it weren't by Ian Livingstone? link
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Post by slloyd14 on Aug 2, 2022 22:33:35 GMT
It really shows that this is by someone who wrote for Fabled Lands.
Items and situations that increase your initial scores are all over the place. This is not FF, but I am not complaining!
I loved most of the set pieces including the pirates, the big rock monster and exploring the castle.
Having the traitor was interesting - it means that the book has consequences for what you do later on.
Mortis was a big of a let down, but he wasn't an impossible combat? Would you prefer an Razaak?
Loved it.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 2, 2023 22:42:13 GMT
Fairly easy book, a change from the preceding BVP. The map, for once, is a really big help and it helps you to not get lost during the trek. The Ring of Communing isn't that big of a help though (was it supposed to be?) since you don't get that much relevant info from General What's-His-Name.
I know "You" are supposed to be a Mercenary, only in for the dough, but it's easy to get sidetracked and trying to help people along the way. Meanwhile you get to ride a Centaur with Bipolar Disorder (and if you went astray to grab the not-that-important Spear of Qadarnai, you need to ride him, otherwise it's game over, in a twist showing that yeah, we can take too long to teach the Keep).
One of the things that still puzzle me is the riddle the Jester throws at you at (233) about a "password". Only thing I could come up with was "Pas sword", which made me decide not to go through the door with the sword symbol on it, but it's still a 50-50 chance of hitting it right.
Bloodrise Keep feels too little of what could have been a good thing. Yeah, you need to screw up really bad to have too high a Alarm Score to, well, screw up, but even that can be bypassed IIRC. You just need to find Lady Iola, let her teach you the Charm, and presto, it's victory assured (provided you don't waste the Charm on other Undeads which, by the way, you would be a moron to do so). Even if you get your doors mixed up and you end up meeting old Mortis face to face, he isn't that big of a challenge anyway: inside the keep he's Sk. 11 St. 20, on top of the dam of bones he's Sk. 10 St. 20.
Off-topic questions:
1- Aren't the Wights (76) the monsters that, in TWOFTM, can only be harmed with silver weapons?
2- Garond the Bard states (218) that the Spear of Qadarnai has magical properties against the Undead (double damage, that fits) but that the fact of being handled by non-magical beings hampers its powers. We get no other references in-text about that lack of powers - actually, the only thing that happens if you manage to skewer Mortis like Qadarnai did is you get your hair to turn all white for reasons that fail to emerge in my mind.
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Post by a moderator on Oct 2, 2023 23:35:18 GMT
One of the things that still puzzle me is the riddle the Jester throws at you at (233) about a "password". Only thing I could come up with was "Pas sword", which made me decide not to go through the door with the sword symbol on it, but it's still a 50-50 chance of hitting it right. Not 'Pas', but 'Asp', indicating that you should also avoid the door with the snake symbol.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 3, 2023 12:39:11 GMT
Rats, it was so obvious I don't know how that eluded me...
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Post by alziel on Dec 12, 2023 14:51:01 GMT
I remember very, very little about this book apart from it evoking in me a very short feeling of elation, followed by a since persistent mixed feeling of disappointment and apathy....
The reason for this?
Well, apart from the fact that I only ever played it once, back in the early 90s, the main cause is due to the fact that I successfully completed the book on my very first attempt! The one and ONLY time that this has ever happened with a Fighting Fantasy book. I even remember that I completed it with a Skill of 8 and a Luck of 9 (can't remember the Stamina score!). I also completed it VERY quickly, so I must have bypassed a sizeable chunk of the book.
Because I considered the book too easy, too short and lacking in substance, I never have gone back and played it again. Judging by the generally warm praise that the book seems to receive from fandom, I should probably give it another shot and see what I might be missing, because I DO tend to enjoy Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson's stuff (particularly Dave Morris').
It's been a while since I played a Golden Dragon book, so maybe I should pick those up too...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 12, 2023 16:45:39 GMT
I remember very, very little about this book apart from it evoking in me a very short feeling of elation, followed by a since persistent mixed feeling of disappointment and apathy.... The reason for this? Well, apart from the fact that I only ever played it once, back in the early 90s, the main cause is due to the fact that I successfully completed the book on my very first attempt! The one and ONLY time that this has ever happened with a Fighting Fantasy book. I even remember that I completed it with a Skill of 8 and a Luck of 9 (can't remember the Stamina score!). I also completed it VERY quickly, so I must have bypassed a sizeable chunk of the book. Because I considered the book too easy, too short and lacking in substance, I never have gone back and played it again. Judging by the generally warm praise that the book seems to receive from fandom, I should probably give it another shot and see what I might be missing, because I DO tend to enjoy Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson's stuff (particularly Dave Morris'). It's been a while since I played a Golden Dragon book, so maybe I should pick those up too... Yes it's very unusual in that the design flaw is that it's quite statistically easy to win whilst missing most of the book, including some of the most interesting/fun sections. Usually the problem is either that a book is statistically impossible whatever you do, or relies on you solving puzzles which make no sense or just making straight-up unmotivated decisions.
Sometimes people talk about having patches or house rules to fix faulty books such as reimagining the one-stroke combats in CoM. TKotLL is about the only one where the house rules that would make the final showdown with Mortis statistically harder and making the side-quests such as defeating Lady Lotmora more important in countering the difficulty.
Edit: I now see that I've already made a comment very similar to this on this thread already.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 13, 2023 9:33:17 GMT
I remember very, very little about this book apart from it evoking in me a very short feeling of elation, followed by a since persistent mixed feeling of disappointment and apathy.... The reason for this? Well, apart from the fact that I only ever played it once, back in the early 90s, the main cause is due to the fact that I successfully completed the book on my very first attempt! The one and ONLY time that this has ever happened with a Fighting Fantasy book. I even remember that I completed it with a Skill of 8 and a Luck of 9 (can't remember the Stamina score!). I also completed it VERY quickly, so I must have bypassed a sizeable chunk of the book. Because I considered the book too easy, too short and lacking in substance, I never have gone back and played it again. Judging by the generally warm praise that the book seems to receive from fandom, I should probably give it another shot and see what I might be missing, because I DO tend to enjoy Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson's stuff (particularly Dave Morris'). It's been a while since I played a Golden Dragon book, so maybe I should pick those up too... Yes it's very unusual in that the design flaw is that it's quite statistically easy to win whilst missing most of the book, including some of the most interesting/fun sections. Usually the problem is either that a book is statistically impossible whatever you do, or relies on you solving puzzles which make no sense or just making straight-up unmotivated decisions.
Sometimes people talk about having patches or house rules to fix faulty books such as reimagining the one-stroke combats in CoM. TKotLL is about the only one where the house rules that would make the final showdown with Mortis statistically harder and making the side-quests such as defeating Lady Lotmora more important in countering the difficulty.
Edit: I now see that I've already made a comment very similar to this on this thread already.
This is a similar feeling to Space Assassin, which to me felt like a low-challenge level CYOA only with some dice-rolling. A second and related issue with TKOTL-L is that you do not have to face your boss in combat, which some will like and others will not like. This arguably works better in Citadel Of Chaos where you have more thrilling encounters beforehand and high-level writing (my own opinion is Steve Jackson writes better than Dave Morris). I've a strong feeling at least some of this 'warm feeling' (which is very much not shared by everyone, with FF ranking tending to place KOTL-L in the bottom third of gamebooks) is because FF readers are reckoning "finally an FF that isn't far too hard" rather than for well-written but gimmicky side quests or Dave's intelligent-if-superficial writing skills.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 13, 2023 9:48:28 GMT
I remember very, very little about this book apart from it evoking in me a very short feeling of elation, followed by a since persistent mixed feeling of disappointment and apathy.... The reason for this? Well, apart from the fact that I only ever played it once, back in the early 90s, the main cause is due to the fact that I successfully completed the book on my very first attempt! The one and ONLY time that this has ever happened with a Fighting Fantasy book. I even remember that I completed it with a Skill of 8 and a Luck of 9 (can't remember the Stamina score!). I also completed it VERY quickly, so I must have bypassed a sizeable chunk of the book. Because I considered the book too easy, too short and lacking in substance, I never have gone back and played it again. Judging by the generally warm praise that the book seems to receive from fandom, I should probably give it another shot and see what I might be missing, because I DO tend to enjoy Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson's stuff (particularly Dave Morris'). It's been a while since I played a Golden Dragon book, so maybe I should pick those up too... I'm a huge fan of Golden Dragon series in spite of negative feelings about KOTL-L and many other Dave Morris works. This could be called hypocrisy, inconsistent, or nuanced, but I just think many things about Golden Dragon are just right, the game-system as well as the writing. And I actually don't think it's inconsistent either, many people like Rowling's Harry Potter but not her Cormoran Strike or like Buffy The Vampire Slayer but not Firefly and definitely vice versa.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 13, 2023 11:12:30 GMT
I'm a huge fan of Golden Dragon series in spite of negative feelings about KOTL-L and many other Dave Morris works. Out of interest, what are the other Dave Morris books you don't like?
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 13, 2023 11:34:00 GMT
I'm a huge fan of Golden Dragon series in spite of negative feelings about KOTL-L and many other Dave Morris works. Out of interest, what are the other Dave Morris books you don't like? As I've mentioned the one Golden Dragon I didn't really like was one of Dave Morris's first. I didn't like the first Knightmare book he wrote with Tim Child, which is agreed by most to have been overly loyal to the series, proasic and lacking in creativity. I thought his first Heroquest gamebook Fellowship Of Four was clumsy and failed, and I generally felt the series was very gamelike - I'm aware there are entire series based on things like Sonic and Mario but that sort of thing isn't me. I never got into his Brexit gamebook as it seemed very technical with a lot of information and reliance on one-liners\end references rather than action and decision. I recall voting for Leave, partly out of Labour sympathies, but as I've always thought Dave Morris is intelligent and I respect him some Remain\Tory handwriting was never a concern.
As a gamebook writer Dave Morris seems to me very good at writing generically rather than constructing elaborate worlds, I think this is why I like his Fabled Lands and Golden Dragon.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 13, 2023 14:31:58 GMT
Out of interest, what are the other Dave Morris books you don't like? As I've mentioned the one Golden Dragon I didn't really like was one of Dave Morris's first. I didn't like the first Knightmare book he wrote with Tim Child, which is agreed by most to have been overly loyal to the series, proasic and lacking in creativity. I thought his first Heroquest gamebook Fellowship Of Four was clumsy and failed, and I generally felt the series was very gamelike - I'm aware there are entire series based on things like Sonic and Mario but that sort of thing isn't me. I never got into his Brexit gamebook as it seemed very technical with a lot of information and reliance on one-liners\end references rather than action and decision. I recall voting for Leave, partly out of Labour sympathies, but as I've always thought Dave Morris is intelligent and I respect him some Remain\Tory handwriting was never a concern.
As a gamebook writer Dave Morris seems to me very good at writing generically rather than constructing elaborate worlds, I think this is why I like his Fabled Lands and Golden Dragon.
Yeah, Fellowship of Four, Knightmare: Can You Beat the Challenge? and Can You Brexit? would probably be my least favourite DM gamebooks too. The first two stick to the source material too much and the third has barely any real decisions in it. I really like Curse of the Vampire though but to each their own.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 13, 2023 14:50:48 GMT
As I've mentioned the one Golden Dragon I didn't really like was one of Dave Morris's first. I didn't like the first Knightmare book he wrote with Tim Child, which is agreed by most to have been overly loyal to the series, proasic and lacking in creativity. I thought his first Heroquest gamebook Fellowship Of Four was clumsy and failed, and I generally felt the series was very gamelike - I'm aware there are entire series based on things like Sonic and Mario but that sort of thing isn't me. I never got into his Brexit gamebook as it seemed very technical with a lot of information and reliance on one-liners\end references rather than action and decision. I recall voting for Leave, partly out of Labour sympathies, but as I've always thought Dave Morris is intelligent and I respect him some Remain\Tory handwriting was never a concern.
As a gamebook writer Dave Morris seems to me very good at writing generically rather than constructing elaborate worlds, I think this is why I like his Fabled Lands and Golden Dragon.
Yeah, Fellowship of Four, Knightmare: Can You Beat the Challenge? and Can You Brexit? would probably be my least favourite DM gamebooks too. The first two stick to the source material too much and the third has barely any real decisions in it. I really like Curse of the Vampire though but to each their own. Yes, Curse Of The Vampire was the gamebook I was meaning to refer to. I haven't played it for a very long time. Golden Dragon thread suggests there is a quick solution in which there is not just little but no risk of failure, if this is so this could be a criticism about it (although I agree it wouldn't be so bad if it were well done, unlike Starship Traveller or say Gates Of Death).
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 13, 2023 15:01:46 GMT
Yeah, Fellowship of Four, Knightmare: Can You Beat the Challenge? and Can You Brexit? would probably be my least favourite DM gamebooks too. The first two stick to the source material too much and the third has barely any real decisions in it. I really like Curse of the Vampire though but to each their own. Yes, Curse Of The Vampire was the gamebook I was meaning to refer to. I haven't played it for a very long time. Golden Dragon thread suggests there is a quick solution in which there is not just little but no risk of failure, if this is so this could be a criticism about it (although I agree it wouldn't be so bad if it were well done, unlike Starship Traveller or say Gates Of Death). I don't really see that as a bad thing as the trick is finding this easy path in the first place.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 13, 2023 20:40:08 GMT
I've looked back at some of my earlier posts and I don't think even I knew whether I was referring to Crypt Of The Vampire or Castle Of Lost Souls as unpolished early works, both are well-written if imperfect in my opinion. Like FF (and CYOA, and Lone Wolf, and actually most gamebooks) I believe both series have a mixture of titles that are strong and not-so-strong. If other people reckon Jon Green can be praised for his early works that have a horrendous difficulty level and excessive dice-rolling and book-keeping I say Dave Morris isn't above criticism for his learning curve and the audience he writes for. At least some of my praise for Golden Dragon isn't about these mixed feelings for the primary author but for things like the game-system which allows for a wide variety of possible starting stats, and has a swift and interesting combat system, the quick adventures compared to Keith Martin, and Dave's abilities as a storyteller. Where Dave hasn't resonated has been in things like deep characterisation and sense of wonder (apart from FFs creators, Robin Waterfield, Paul Mason and Stephen Hand have excelled at this world-building).
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Dec 13, 2023 23:46:51 GMT
I've looked back at some of my earlier posts and I don't think even I knew whether I was referring to Crypt Of The Vampire or Castle Of Lost Souls as unpolished early works, Castle is very unpolished but I really like it - perhaps because of that. There's nothing quite like it - it's just such an odd way to design an item hunt and the whole thing has such a dreamlike, fairy-tale atmosphere. I don't know if it was due to the input of Yve Newnham or just because it was a rewrite of Morris' first gamebook and he hadn't developed a formula yet, but there's just something very charming about it.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Dec 20, 2023 17:00:18 GMT
I remember very, very little about this book apart from it evoking in me a very short feeling of elation, followed by a since persistent mixed feeling of disappointment and apathy.... The reason for this? Well, apart from the fact that I only ever played it once, back in the early 90s, the main cause is due to the fact that I successfully completed the book on my very first attempt! The one and ONLY time that this has ever happened with a Fighting Fantasy book. I even remember that I completed it with a Skill of 8 and a Luck of 9 (can't remember the Stamina score!). I also completed it VERY quickly, so I must have bypassed a sizeable chunk of the book. Because I considered the book too easy, too short and lacking in substance, I never have gone back and played it again. Judging by the generally warm praise that the book seems to receive from fandom, I should probably give it another shot and see what I might be missing, because I DO tend to enjoy Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson's stuff (particularly Dave Morris'). It's been a while since I played a Golden Dragon book, so maybe I should pick those up too... Personally, I think KotLL gets thrown to the bottom shelf because of its simplicity (pretty much everyone finishes the book on their first attempt) and because the last fight doesn't make much sense: the Alarm Value score is rendered useless if you go outside the keep; and, Mortis is (in my opinion) actually more powerful if fought outside and before the sunset (he has Sk. 10 but he affects your Attack Strength in one or two points, depending of your Resolve).
However, having a simple book once in a while is a nice change from the continued flow of teeth-gritting ones like Crypt of the Sorcerer, per example.
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Post by misomiso on Jan 11, 2024 8:40:55 GMT
I always really liked this one - it was refreshing that it was much easier than a lot of the others!
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