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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 5, 2019 17:07:55 GMT
Same idea as the other thread: If you got a chance to make adjustments to Citadel of Chaos, what would they be? Rules are: The changes have to be fairly minimal. Moving items around, rewriting a couple sections etc. is fine but you can't completely redo a major portion of the book. Basically the sort of changes that could reasonably be done in a hypothetical new printing. Off the top of my head: * Tweak the magic a bit more. Some of the spells like Creature Copy, seem like they should be usable in any battle at the players discretion. * As some reviewers note, it doesn't quite feel like there's an army waiting to pour out on the world. Adding more description up front about how the character has snuck through an army camp en route to the castle, and seeing stock piles of weapons and supplies inside the walls would go a long way to improving this. * Im trying to remember if there's multiple solutions to the Ganjees or not. If not, it feels like there should be a second, costly option there if you don't find the plot coupon. Though I know "Item or die" is a common design choice, so maybe that's heresy around here * Personally,I'd have loved a chance to chat more with the Calacorm
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Post by a moderator on Dec 5, 2019 17:20:48 GMT
Technically there's a second means of getting past the Ganjees, but it's on a route that takes you nowhere near the library, so getting it means missing out on the combination to the door lock.
Speaking of the lock, it'd be good to have some reason why you can't just try every conceivable combination in turn until you get the right one. A sorcerous trap triggered by getting it wrong, for example.
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 5, 2019 17:25:22 GMT
Technically there's a second means of getting past the Ganjees, but it's on a route that takes you nowhere near the library, so getting it means missing out on the combination to the door lock. Speaking of the lock, it'd be good to have some reason why you can't just try every conceivable combination in turn until you get the right one. A sorcerous trap triggered by getting it wrong, for example. Yeah, a bit of gamebook logic is unavoidable, but adding a trap or magical restriction to prevent the lock being tampered with would only require a few lines and clear up a logical question.
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Post by philsadler on Dec 6, 2019 6:11:58 GMT
It's such a good and well-designed book that I don't think it really needs much tweaking, if any.
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Post by Peter on Dec 6, 2019 8:12:38 GMT
The page you turn to after leaving either the games room or the library (it's the same page for both), says "you leave the games room". Take out the word "games".
That's genuinely the only thing I would change in the entire book. This book was part of the Golden Age of gamebooks, before anyone knew what worked and what didn't, so the authors weren't focussed on sticking to any formula.
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 6, 2019 16:37:34 GMT
Oh sure, I wasn't suggesting it had major flaws or anything
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Post by vastariner on Dec 6, 2019 17:44:24 GMT
There's one major flaw, surely? You can end the book on top of a burning building without a Levitation spell...so how do you get down? Either that could be an insta-death or there could be a Test your Skill on climbing down/tying the curtains together or whatever to abseil to safety.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 6, 2019 19:39:12 GMT
You can't tie the curtains together because you just set fire to them.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 6, 2019 20:11:52 GMT
I feel the lower rooms should serve more purpose - you can skip a major chunk of the book by avoiding them and there's little reason not to do so. Maybe the combination code should be in 2 parts - one in the library and one in the lower chambers.
Come to think of it, it's pretty silly that the code is in a library book in the first place.
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 6, 2019 20:25:48 GMT
The combination code is pretty "game book", though there's a lot of people throughout the citadel. Having you get the code from one of them makes more sense, then let the library give a hint on the spells Dire likes to employ.
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Post by The Count on Dec 7, 2019 4:38:47 GMT
There should be the impression that you are sneaking through an army, not a bunch of random creature encounters - have a barracks even if reaching it is an instant death
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Post by peasantscribbler on Feb 8, 2020 18:42:01 GMT
I would move the pointless secret passageway from its current location to the library so that it leads from the library to the passageway leading to the pantry. If in the library you choose to read Secrets of the Black Tower (which mentions secret passageways in the Citadel), then you would be given the option to search for secret passageways within the library. You should probably need to pass a luck test to find it and to avoid the attention of the librarian. This change would allow you to use the more satisfying solution for getting past the Gangees and still get into Balthus Dire’s room at the end.
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Post by Law on May 16, 2020 18:50:32 GMT
I love the Howl of the Werewolf / Legend of Zagor variegation of an enemies' attacks.
But I never cared for the changing their attacks in the initial rounds then backsliding to 2dmg chipping away at each other. Though the original Zagor needs this far more than Balthus, this is what I came up with for him. BALTHUS DIRE SKILL ??/10 STAMINA 19/19 MAGIC 25/50 (or full if you did not engage in a wizard's duel)- If you lose two attack rounds in a row, he will be able to repel you long enough to reclaim his Blue-honed Skull Sword from the weapons cabinet, +2 to AS. Unless you took it! If not, he will also take back his Ring of Swordsmanship, +2 to In Sk, if you managed to steal it! You can only put it on if you manage to cast a Shield Spell to give you breathing room. - For every consecutive attack round Dire or you manages to win, roll one die to select your spell. Sequentially on your list of twelve (1 for 1-2, 2 for 2-4 etc.) or from his list of six. (Even a Demi-Sorcerer cannot cast his evil spells while being hacked apart) All arcane-based attacks will cost him 5 Magic Points per use until he's expended his strength.
Roll Attack and Damage
1 - Silver Gaze (Cursed eye-beams that reduce your AS by 3 for the next attack round, if you're unlucky enough to be caught the next AR with this again, the effect will stack but not the duration) 2 - Translocation (Roll 1-2 and Dire will blink out of existence to drive his blade into your unprotected back, 2d6dmg unless you succeed on a Luck Test) 3 - Fencing Master (Disarms you of your sword, -1d6 from your subsequent AS, reclaiming it will require your next AR's full attention so attacking will be out of the question... Unless you have a Levitation Spell to spare...) 4 - Negation (Whenever you launch a magic attack, roll 1d6. Should it land on a four, he reabsorbs the spell [Fire 5+1d6dmg / Levitation 3+1d6dmg -1d6AS for 1AR] and sends it back at you. Test for Skill to dodge these bolts of force) 5 - Rain of Knives (Roll two dice, this is the number of summoned blades that sink home. 2dmg each) 6 - Domination Touch (Places his hand on your forehead and begins to drain your will. Lose 2d6 of Luck points, once Luck is exhausted, 1d6 of the spells that remain to you. Once they are gone, so shall your will to resist be also...)
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 16, 2020 19:03:03 GMT
To be honest, the Balthus Dire battle is well reputed to be one of the best final clashes in Fighting Fantasy. It's not that the battle needs any changes; it's more so other Fighting Fantasy books should have followed in its footsteps in presenting combats to such a high degree. The majority of the time, it's a single paragraph confrontation instead of one with many possibilities depending on your choices and not relying on your attributes.
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Post by Law on May 16, 2020 19:25:26 GMT
To be honest, the Balthus Dire battle is well reputed to be one of the best final clashes in Fighting Fantasy. It's not that the battle needs any changes; it's more so other Fighting Fantasy books should have followed in its footsteps in presenting combats to such a high degree. The majority of the time, it's a single paragraph confrontation instead of one with many possibilities depending on your choices and not relying on your attributes. Oh it definitely needs some improvement. Sunlight should drain him of his magic powers or some Skill points instead of being an IK.
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Post by schlendrian on May 16, 2020 20:14:02 GMT
Why do I have to roll which spells I can choose? Why do all magic costs come in multiples of five? It's identical to him having 5/10 magic points and each spell costing one
Fencing Master: do I reclaim my sword regardless of the attack round's outcome? And if I understand your rules correctly, I can't cast a levitation spell, as I've just lost an attack round (two consecutive ones, to be precise, otherwise he Balthus couldn't have cast the spell in the first place). Negation: I don't really get the reabsorption part...
Nice rules overall, though I'm mostly with Sylas in thinking that the original battle really is exceptionally fine as it is - and I personally dislike removing his sunlight allergy
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Post by philsadler on May 16, 2020 21:42:14 GMT
To be honest, the Balthus Dire battle is well reputed to be one of the best final clashes in Fighting Fantasy.
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
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Post by Law on May 16, 2020 22:30:50 GMT
Why do I have to roll which spells I can choose? Why do all magic costs come in multiples of five? It's identical to him having 5/10 magic points and each spell costing one
Fencing Master: do I reclaim my sword regardless of the attack round's outcome? And if I understand your rules correctly, I can't cast a levitation spell, as I've just lost an attack round (two consecutive ones, to be precise, otherwise he Balthus couldn't have cast the spell in the first place). Negation: I don't really get the reabsorption part...
Nice rules overall, though I'm mostly with Sylas in thinking that the original battle really is exceptionally fine as it is - and I personally dislike removing his sunlight allergy
I thought it would be unfair if you could pick your own and he couldn't. The travails and chaos of combat I guess?
Originally I had differing costs for his abilities (2, 3 for the first two 4, 5 for the last, the fourth was free!) not to mention a higher magic score for him. But my own character was far more powerful (having been through a self-made campaign) than your standard so I thought you should be rewarded for tiring him down and stealing the sword / ring. It's mentioned he's pretty exhausted In text I believe... Should have play-tested I know but I'm sure five instances of bad luck could quite easily see a powerful character getting torn apart.
I would think not if he nails you with another spell! That is a legitimate dearth of explanation on my part. I suppose you could roll to see if you can cast it regardless of losing... Only a 1-6 chance! Or hell, ignore the first rule and summon your sword as long as you've still got a Levitation Spell in your tool box. That would surely be an easier and faster feat than making yourself float about or hurling an air-force burst / piece of heavy furniture. If you manage to use a Fire or Levitation spell he has a 1 in 6 chance of returning it to sender like he does earlier in the choices when you make that explosion at his feet.
As cheesy as I sometimes consider it is, I role-played the battle in that I had been utterly defeated and was about to die until I used Levitation to tear the drapes down on him! You'd think the poor bloke would have a windowless room. Must have been Lucretia's feng shui screwing up his plans.
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Post by Law on May 16, 2020 22:37:22 GMT
To be honest, the Balthus Dire battle is well reputed to be one of the best final clashes in Fighting Fantasy.
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
Colour me intrigued... I've got Hellfire waiting for me in the wings. Is there any order your creations should be played?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 16, 2020 23:18:42 GMT
To be honest, the Balthus Dire battle is well reputed to be one of the best final clashes in Fighting Fantasy.
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
Not in FF, no. What makes the battle great is that there is a way to win without resorting to combat if you are resourceful enough. I could never figure out why no more books did this. It's a genius idea. LawBalthus Dire was a demi-sorcerer which probably means that he is only half a sorcerer and half warlord/warrior which would explain why you feel his magic isn't higher than yours (that's what you get for multiclassing). In addition, your character is one of the most powerful adventuring heroes in the FF world. All other spellcasters must sacrifice a bit of physical prowess due to their devotion to magical arts and their Skill is rolled up using 1d6+4 instead of the normal +6 for a warrior class. The hero in Citadel however, still gets the +6 making him a formidable warrior as well as a talented wizard. The only other hero to rival this one is the Analander who, in comparison, has far more powerful spells.
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Post by Law on May 16, 2020 23:51:48 GMT
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
Not in FF, no. What makes the battle great is that there is a way to win without resorting to combat if you are resourceful enough. I could never figure out why no more books did this. It's a genius idea. Law Balthus Dire was a demi-sorcerer which probably means that he is only half a sorcerer and half warlord/warrior which would explain why you feel his magic isn't higher than yours (that's what you get for multiclassing). In addition, your character is one of the most powerful adventuring heroes in the FF world. All other spellcasters must sacrifice a bit of physical prowess due to their devotion to magical arts and their Skill is rolled up using 1d6+4 instead of the normal +6 for a warrior class. The hero in Citadel however, still gets the +6 making him a formidable warrior as well as a talented wizard. The only other hero to rival this one is the Analander who, in comparison, has far more powerful spells. Interesting. I never looked at it that way, I thought the Demi prefix alluded to his half-human half-daemon origins. And though The Star Pupil of Vermithrax is an incredibly talented and promising battle mage, Balthus is on another level. I mean: he could summon a Claw Beast with a snap of his fingers and dominate its animal mind, used True Polymorph to turn into a legitimate Gorgon, Animate Objects to asphyxiate you with the curtains. He could use variants of Teleport, Forcecage and Major Image (the earthquake illusion) and could pretty much do the same move we all fear Razaak for. (Touch you long enough that you become his thrall) He was the Real - Deal!
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Post by philsadler on May 17, 2020 8:18:23 GMT
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
Colour me intrigued... I've got Hellfire waiting for me in the wings. Is there any order your creations should be played?
Hellfire Riders of the Storm (this is HF's sequel) House of Pain (standalone)
Deathtrap (standalone)
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Post by cyranotheswordfish on May 31, 2020 16:55:35 GMT
I guess make paragraph 258 accessible. Utterly inconsequential, mind
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Post by fertobardi on Jan 29, 2024 17:14:42 GMT
This is exactly why I (warning: blatant plug) borrowed the idea for my final boss in Riders of the Storm. Seriously, has there been a better final battle in FF?
Not in FF, no. What makes the battle great is that there is a way to win without resorting to combat if you are resourceful enough. I could never figure out why no more books did this. It's a genius idea. LawBalthus Dire was a demi-sorcerer which probably means that he is only half a sorcerer and half warlord/warrior which would explain why you feel his magic isn't higher than yours (that's what you get for multiclassing). In addition, your character is one of the most powerful adventuring heroes in the FF world. All other spellcasters must sacrifice a bit of physical prowess due to their devotion to magical arts and their Skill is rolled up using 1d6+4 instead of the normal +6 for a warrior class. The hero in Citadel however, still gets the +6 making him a formidable warrior as well as a talented wizard. The only other hero to rival this one is the Analander who, in comparison, has far more powerful spells. Btw, citadel its the top 1 in my heart because of Balthus Dire. I never forget the first time i looked at him. I was shocked. I was expecting a way more different beast. And he was like intriguing and exotic as hell. I was way more impressed with him than i was when met the strider on trial of champions. On a side note, after all this years i started to search for the strider inside the pages of the citadel because all was exotic in there. Telling about exotic...i dont dare to make changes on this amazing book but for an open campaing rpg purpose its to maybe reinforce the entrance gates security? The two mutants guarding the gates are kinda on the easy side. Not even a guard on a superior position in the walls? Its actually what im doing when i decide to storm the citadel once more with my rogue no spell caster custom character. Maybe would add an alternative route climbing the walls on a less populated spot arriving directly on some place other side the walls on the square giving that more rogueish flavour.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 30, 2024 10:02:46 GMT
Btw, citadel its the top 1 in my heart because of Balthus Dire. I never forget the first time i looked at him. I was shocked. I was expecting a way more different beast. And he was like intriguing and exotic as hell. I was way more impressed with him than i was when met the strider on trial of champions. On a side note, after all this years i started to search for the strider inside the pages of the citadel because all was exotic in there. Not sure the ponytail works for me, like Monkey Island I think ponytails look a little off. Or Armstrong And Miller .
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Post by a moderator on Jan 30, 2024 15:27:34 GMT
Not sure the ponytail works for me, like Monkey Island I think ponytails look a little off. In view of some of the threads you've created in the past, I'm going to advise against a poll on what hairdo would best suit Balthus Dire.
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Per
Traveller
AHAHAHA!
Posts: 151
Favourite Gamebook Series: Morris VR, some FF, Chalk LW
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Post by Per on Jan 30, 2024 16:41:15 GMT
This sounds very Yellow Snow-y.
Roll one die to see what you're facing:
1 - BALTHUS DIRE WITH PATRICK SWAYZE MULLET - SKILL 9 STAMINA 16 2 - BALTHUS DIRE WITH SHORT RADIAL PLAITS - SKILL 7 STAMINA 11 3 - BALTHUS DIRE WITH LIKE DAVID BOWIE IN LABYRINTH HAIR - SKILL 13 STAMINA 26 and every other Attack Round you remind him of the babe ...
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Post by fertobardi on Jan 31, 2024 3:39:49 GMT
Not sure the ponytail works for me, like Monkey Island I think ponytails look a little off. Or Armstrong And Miller . Dont mind having a ponytail at all, aslong as is one exactly like Dires, pointed up to the sky intimidating me, always ready and erect.
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Post by misomiso on Jan 31, 2024 14:37:57 GMT
As other's have said I think this one of the finest FF books, a real underrated classic, but if we are making changes they would be...
1) Narratively have WAY more troops in the courtyard part of the castle. This happens in Sorcery! as well, but the main idea is that you don't have the feeling of you being an assassin going through hordes of troops to go after the main bad guy. A legion or two of Orcs would have gone down very well.
2) The encounter with the wife I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity and not that well executed. She could have a bit more character - maybe she hates Balthus, maybe she is bored, maybe she takes a liking to you - either way I always found that part of the book unvonvincing.
3) I would be tempted to make the combats HARDER and lean more on the spellcasting.
4) Finally you have a lot of spells to choose a the beginning of the adventure - maybe being able to select fewer would make the adventure a bit tighter and the spellcasting easier to understand.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 105
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Jan 31, 2024 17:16:42 GMT
I have an idea for a sequel for "Citadel of Chaos": the Lady Lucretia hunting down the murderer of her husband.
(it would probably make more sense than "Assassins of Allansia"...)
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