What would you change in: Citadel of Chaos?

[sylas]

Jan 31, 2024 17:16:42 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

I have an idea for a sequel for "Citadel of Chaos": the Lady Lucretia hunting down the murderer of her husband.

(it would probably make more sense than "Assassins of Allansia"...)

Wasn't there a post some time ago with something similar when the next Steve Jackson book was teased? I remember a mysterious post of a Balthus Dire pic (I think a skull was involved somewhere as well) which had people speculating his lady was going to resurrect her husband so that he could exact his revenge. Memory's a bit fuzzy on it but it would've been pretty awesome if it became real.
The next book turned out to be Secrets of Salamonis and nothing more was mentioned about that mysterious post so people either speculated too much or it was an idea that got scrapped.

[Per]

Last thing I heard is he wanted to use Leesha as well but couldn't afford the licensing cost Ian was asking.

[sylas]

Jan 31, 2024 22:47:28 GMT Per said:

Last thing I heard is he wanted to use Leesha as well but couldn't afford the licensing cost Ian was asking.

I never knew about this one. What was the context? Was it going to be another cameo for Secrets of Salamonis or something else?

[Per]

Jan 31, 2024 22:54:52 GMT sylas said:

Jan 31, 2024 22:47:28 GMT Per said:

Last thing I heard is he wanted to use Leesha as well but couldn't afford the licensing cost Ian was asking.

I never knew about this one. What was the context? Was it going to be another cameo for Secrets of Salamonis or something else?

Sorry, just a joking reference to Hand of Fate.

[pip]

I like this book, but having to figure out you have to give the jar of ointment to the ganjees surely could be improved, as it's so completely random.

Also, this cover just won't do (what were they thinking?):

[kieran]

Jan 31, 2024 23:36:22 GMT pip said:

I like this book, but having to figure out you have to give the jar of ointment to the ganjees surely could be improved, as it's so completely random.

Also, this cover just won't do (what were they thinking?):

I don't think I've ever seen a variant with that random star before.

I do wonder what possible use ganjees could have for ointment.

[Per]

Feb 1, 2024 10:07:41 GMT kieran said:

I do wonder what possible use ganjees could have for ointment.

Nathan Page's explanation in The Horror of Craggen Rock was that the Ganjees actually weren't disembodied heads but they had leprous bodies hidden by the darkness.

[CharlesX]

Jan 31, 2024 14:37:57 GMT misomiso said:

As other's have said I think this one of the finest FF books, a real underrated classic, but if we are making changes they would be...

1) Narratively have WAY more troops in the courtyard part of the castle. This happens in Sorcery! as well, but the main idea is that you don't have the feeling of you being an assassin going through hordes of troops to go after the main bad guy. A legion or two of Orcs would have gone down very well.

2) The encounter with the wife I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity and not that well executed. She could have a bit more character - maybe she hates Balthus, maybe she is bored, maybe she takes a liking to you - either way I always found that part of the book unvonvincing.

3) I would be tempted to make the combats HARDER and lean more on the spellcasting.

4) Finally you have a lot of spells to choose a the beginning of the adventure - maybe being able to select fewer would make the adventure a bit tighter and the spellcasting easier to understand.

Where 1 and 2 sound credible no so sure I agree with 3 and 4. There will always be disagreement about whether a gamebook series is too easy or too hard, but I lean to the view that along a true path a gamebook should not be overly challenging. I don't think this is terribly controversial, but I can say as well gamebooks are often aimed at kids rather than students and on that basis should not be too frightening. The magic system gives a variety of choice that leads for alternate routes through the book and a feel that is both sophisticated and not too complicated (I was about eleven when I played Citadel Of Chaos and I had absolutely no problems). I'd agree say Temple Of Terror is quite competitive compared with the ill-thought-out one in Legend Of Zagor.

   Playing devil's advocate to 1 I think the suggestion is the bad guy is a typical arrogant 'evil\bad guy' who only bothers with light defence, which is more believable in a fantasy setting. I imagine what you've written might make narrative sense but would be hard to execute well. 

[CharlesX]

Jan 31, 2024 17:16:42 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

I have an idea for a sequel for "Citadel of Chaos": the Lady Lucretia hunting down the murderer of her husband.

(it would probably make more sense than "Assassins of Allansia"...)

I've long thought making your way out The Citadel after failing to have a Levitation spell would be a good enough concept for fan fiction or even an RPG.

[Per]

Also:

Feb 1, 2024 10:07:41 GMT kieran said:

I don't think I've ever seen a variant with that random star before.

Considering it extends outside the book cover, there's about a 97% chance it's just a watermark.

[kieran]

Feb 1, 2024 18:27:22 GMT Per said:

Also:

Feb 1, 2024 10:07:41 GMT kieran said:

I don't think I've ever seen a variant with that random star before.

Considering it extends outside the book cover, there's about a 97% chance it's just a watermark.

Haha, time to get my eyes checked perhaps!

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

Feb 1, 2024 12:52:08 GMT CharlesX said:

I've long thought making your way out The Citadel after failing to have a Levitation spell would be a good enough concept for fan fiction or even an RPG.

That would actually be interesting. How would the Gangees react at your return to their lair? What should you do to overcome the Hydra once again (assuming you didn't beat it with a Creature Copy spell, which most likely you didn't)? And, probably, before the very last door, an army of creatures lead by the mourning widow wanting to make shishkebab out of you.

(yeah, it shows I think the Lady Lucretia was a bit underdeveloped in the book)

[CharlesX]

Feb 2, 2024 12:03:31 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

Feb 1, 2024 12:52:08 GMT CharlesX said:

I've long thought making your way out The Citadel after failing to have a Levitation spell would be a good enough concept for fan fiction or even an RPG.

That would actually be interesting. How would the Gangees react at your return to their lair? What should you do to overcome the Hydra once again (assuming you didn't beat it with a Creature Copy spell, which most likely you didn't)? And, probably, before the very last door, an army of creatures lead by the mourning widow wanting to make shishkebab out of you.

(yeah, it shows I think the Lady Lucretia was a bit underdeveloped in the book)

If Lady Lucretia knows about your deed. Perhaps you could have a time track stat?

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

Feb 2, 2024 13:48:41 GMT CharlesX said:

If Lady Lucretia knows about your deed. Perhaps you could have a time track stat?

"The Lady Lucretia has had ample time to gather an army out of the troops stationed at the Citadel to search for the murderer of her husband. And now that they have found you, they will not let you set foot out of the Citadel once again. Despite having bested the demi-sorcerer Balthus Dire, you cannot hope to prevail against so many opponents. A smile appears on the face of Balthus' widow as your body slumps to the ground, bleeding from countless wounds…
Your adventure is over."
Well, that could work. It's either that or running through the Citadel like crazy to try and reach the outer gates before said army is gathered… unless we'd also have an Alarm Value that, like TKoTLL, if above a certain level, would attract some foes to attack us.

[CharlesX]

Feb 3, 2024 17:20:37 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

Feb 2, 2024 13:48:41 GMT CharlesX said:

If Lady Lucretia knows about your deed. Perhaps you could have a time track stat?

"The Lady Lucretia has had ample time to gather an army out of the troops stationed at the Citadel to search for the murderer of her husband. And now that they have found you, they will not let you set foot out of the Citadel once again. Despite having bested the demi-sorcerer Balthus Dire, you cannot hope to prevail against so many opponents. A smile appears on the face of Balthus' widow as your body slumps to the ground, bleeding from countless wounds…
Your adventure is over."
Well, that could work. It's either that or running through the Citadel like crazy to try and reach the outer gates before said army is gathered… unless we'd also have an Alarm Value that, like TKoTLL, if above a certain level, would attract some foes to attack us.

Bit Sir Ian I tend to lean FF and other gamebooks should be more fair than realistic so I say the second paragraph. Or possibly a luck test with the two outcomes - which would be an old-school RPG where it ends even before it starts.

   An alarm value stat might make some more sense if applied throughout the gamebook, which would be crazy as most wouldn't  go that many galaxies off the true path, so that could apply in a developed RPG if it were implemented in the first half of the gamebook, without the option of picking Levitation.

   I sometimes see Lady Lucretia as an upper-class lady who would spend hours brushing her hair in bed, drinking, reading and playing cards before noticing her husband Balthus was dead. I don't know about command structure but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume his minions wouldn't notice immediately, either.

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

I kinda dig the idea of having a certain amount of time to escape the Citadel after killing Balthus Dire, and negotiating the chambers and creatures of it adding a certain tally to that time (depending of what you do) - a bit like the last part of "Legend of Zagor": if you are speedy enough, you reach the final gate with something like the Dark Big Bird guarding it (finally some use for it, since its appearance in that atrocious cover); but if you were too slow, too careful, trying to take it easy, trying not to raise any alarms and do a Midnight Rogue routine, it's the aforementioned army unit waiting for you.
Of course this could be made more challenging if we have to lose some time for some worthy reason, to save someone imprisoned in the Calacorn's jail or to follow a lead into a secret passage in the Citadel's wall that will lead us immediately outside (that could or could not be a red herring). I can see it working.

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

Feb 3, 2024 17:44:07 GMT CharlesX said:

   I sometimes see Lady Lucretia as an upper-class lady who would spend hours brushing her hair in bed, drinking, reading and playing cards before noticing her husband Balthus was dead. I don't know about command structure but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume his minions wouldn't notice immediately, either.

Well, the Scouts do describe her as "very vain and who enjoys the things money and power can buy", so I guess the death of a husband may not register too high on her emotion-meter, indeed. Rats.

[fertobardi]

Feb 3, 2024 18:26:12 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

Feb 3, 2024 17:44:07 GMT CharlesX said:

   I sometimes see Lady Lucretia as an upper-class lady who would spend hours brushing her hair in bed, drinking, reading and playing cards before noticing her husband Balthus was dead. I don't know about command structure but it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume his minions wouldn't notice immediately, either.

Well, the Scouts do describe her as "very vain and who enjoys the things money and power can buy", so I guess the death of a husband may not register too high on her emotion-meter, indeed. Rats.

Exactly, shes not the kind who would drop a tear. Shes the type that would try to manipulate Balthus to get everything that she wants using him as a puppet. But if its me developing that idea for RPG follow up things would go something like this:

As the body of the mighty Balthus stumb down the floor lifeless, you now feel a lot better and reliefed for the accomplishment of your mission. But as you come back to earth and thing of your situation, stuck on the top of the citadel without a levitation spell, you start thinking that extinguish the fire would be a good idea but you see thats too late for that.

At the very same second you think of leave Balthus room and run for your life, the fire burning the plans up the table starts to vanish. You stop amazed wondering how that happened. Is you developing another magical spell out of necessity? If something of this exists. But surely not. Same way as the fire going away, your confused thoughts vanished when you see a woman silhuette standing at the door.

Its lady Lucretia! Instead of tears or hatred in her eyes you see some gloomy light of contained satisfaction. And all its confirmed when she left a tiny smile and speaks with a sadistic manner with you:

- Seems that you are stuck now hero. Balthus troops and best warriors are already searching all the citadel for the intruder and soon they will arrive here at the tower.
-If you care for your life i will offer you the only way you can survive now. Will you accept? - She says on a very serious and dark tone, now that shes entering the room and starts to get closer.

You feel all your spine shivering as this sounds like the invitation of the executioner for your last doomed tiny wish, and not seeing any other alternative route to follow right now you desperetly accept her offer wondering what evil deeds will await you out of that wicked deal.

Walking elegantly and confident past you she reaches Balthus dead corpse and smear some kind of dagger full of strange runes with his blood. With demonic and fixed eyes on you, babbling words you cant describe, she aproaches and stand a hand to you.

Will you give your hand to her and seal that demonic pact? With the sense of time urge and end of the line you feel stucked and hopeless. Theres no way out right now, as she aproaches you with her eyes turned from deep red in to two balls of fire, you sense great evil and give her your hand preparing for what would be the outcome of that demonic embrace.

You give your hand to her and she makes a small cut on your wrist with the dagger. Suddenly you feel all the world spinning and you fall heavy to the ground. You start to feel like your head will explode. You feel your skin burning. Your hair starts to drop and skin start to boil.

Something very bad is happening. Something really wrong. You stand up with what you have left of energy and you dont believe in what you see when lady Lucretia shows your image at her mirror: she turned you an exact copy of Balthus Dire. She smiles and laugh with immense satisfaction. She throws Balthus corpse at the fire and take your hand and you both left the room in a hurry downstairs. As your thoughts inside your head starts to running wild, you start to even wonder that if it was really the real Balthus the foe that you kild or just another cursed adventurer like you. But that doesnt matter at all.

------------------ Final considerations:

Its very possible that shes even more powerfull than Dires judging that she fries you instantly with a blink of her eyes without even left any opportunity for you to defend or fight back like you did with mister Dire.

You got the pony tail curse lol. Its the only way out now. I know a lot of people would prefer to fight the entire Balthus army to death. She gets now an even more reliable puppet but the downside its that this puppet can figure out a way to ruin everything for her.

Now in the sequel: Out of the Citadel - you have to lead Balthus troops to attack your own people at the valley same time you figure out how you will get out of all this mess. Maybe fleeing trought while going with the troops along the Craggen Heights pass in search for help? Maybe theres someone that would recognize the adventurer even that hes not he anymore. Maybe ask for the help of Yaztromo or another wizard or witch? Is this pact really breakable? Or would be your ultimate fate to live up as the guy you wanted to kill some minuts ago?

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

Hmm... I'd like to think the Lady Lucretia has enough power on her own to be able to control at least some of the creatures of the Citadel without needing some Dire clone (I can be wrong, though). Also, we could use a few villainesses in FF, before the morally correctness police reaches us aswell...

[CharlesX]

Feb 5, 2024 15:03:46 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

Hmm... I'd like to think the Lady Lucretia has enough power on her own to be able to control at least some of the creatures of the Citadel without needing some Dire clone (I can be wrong, though). Also, we could use a few villainesses in FF, before the morally correctness police reaches us aswell...

Like people of colour I get the feeling women can be stereotyped as bad guys in mass media fiction, where in FF they are bad guys, wise women, shopkeepers (thanks, Sir Ian), or helpful Elves who die just after meeting with their healing potion (they should have used it themselves, right?). I'm saying it'd be great to play a female hero, or at least have a strong female co-lead.

   I think the scenario above is very dark. One alternate scenario might be to have Lady Lucretia as a bad guy to fight on your way out the citadel. An RPG could have Jann The Minimite stopping you from using Levitation at the end of Citadel, perhaps Jann being the only means to defeat the very powerful Lady Lucretia. Knowledge of secret passageways could have Jann appear in the same room as Lady Lucretia so long as you don't spend too long fighting your way through.

[fertobardi]

Feb 5, 2024 15:03:46 GMT IoannesKantakouzenos said:

Hmm... I'd like to think the Lady Lucretia has enough power on her own to be able to control at least some of the creatures of the Citadel without needing some Dire clone (I can be wrong, though). Also, we could use a few villainesses in FF, before the morally correctness police reaches us aswell...

For sure she have the power. As she can instakill you without not even have to mess up her hair. But as described in the book, she have such unstable and explosive temper. Not so desired qualities for a strategic leader. And maybe not so trustable amongst the higher ranks.

Plus she have 3 kids to take a look part of the day and night, cause the Ganjees was not so trustable to baby sit, as they only tells ghost stories, after all she fired the windy woman because her cleaning its noisy and make even more mess. Meh.

With all these hardships above, would be wise to just be the boss in the shadows. Think in terms of conspiracy theories, that the actual leaders are all clones and they are being controlled by the real bosses that stay in the shadows. Hah.

Add to that, the very reason to keep a Balthus in front its not to be the direct target of some kind of rogue-mage assassins sent on a regular basis cause they need to graduate on their Forest of Yore - mighty demi-wizards that can wear armor and uses sword - Academy.

[Per]

Feb 4, 2024 3:45:56 GMT fertobardi said:

if its me developing that idea for RPG follow up things would go something like this:

Are there any actual players at the table as this plays out?

[fertobardi]

Feb 5, 2024 20:57:32 GMT Per said:

Feb 4, 2024 3:45:56 GMT fertobardi said:

if its me developing that idea for RPG follow up things would go something like this:

Are there any actual players at the table as this plays out?

Yes. I was thinking of the possibilitie in stablish 2 parties playing separetedly and maybe later they will converge and face each other. A thing that can be very fun and will be new for me.

Imagine one partie, of the good guys, being max 3-2 fellow wizards sent by Vermithrax once more, plus scouts, to deal with the menace now as a last resource. At this point the grand wizard of Yore have a clue about what have happened with you and is kinda hopeless about your situation same time he sends a scout to warn Salamonis that the plan have failed and now its time to plan B.

In fact you (heroe of the citadel), havent turned in to a single clone with your own thoughts. But as a part of this banned black magic curse, using the blood like the spirit vessel, Dires spirit have entered your body and now slowly is overtaking it.

Or maybe that kind of magic it was the secret spell that he got to learn finally with the Ganjees. Or it was not him that have learnt that but Lucretia herself.

So, the good guys are sent to one of the Craggen passes to set up an ambush to Balthus. Hoping that a leaderless army will retreat back to the caves. I would like to point here that Balthus army of chaotics was hidden deep inside craggen rock caves (as per the book says). Thats why we dont see a big army outside of the citadel nor inside it like manny pointed here as a flaw. And i like to think by myself that Dires army make their moves only by night time and camp inside caves during the day time along Craggen Heights.

The plan follows: now the play starts and at least one of the wizards likely have the earthquake spell. That way the idea its to same time they will make big rocks fall at Balthus (dark chariot?), trying to kill him, while blocking part of the pass splitting Balthus army to buy more time for the forces of Salamonis assemble at the Vale of Willow.

And thats the right opportunity to our Balthus clone-like to make a move and flee trought the Craggen Rocks. Before escape he tried to kill Lucretia with a dagger inside the chariot but his hand was unable to make a move against his very will while Lucretia just smiled. Lucretia was occupied casting WAL to protect part of the chariot while you ZAPped your way out.

Now we have the chance to arrange other partie: the side of the bad guys, as commanded by lady Lucretia, she ordered some human warriors to protect and bring Balthus back alive. Yup, she doesnt trust or like Balthus chaotics (as per the book also). So that partie will make sense to be: a merciless hill barbarian sent by the barbarian hill leader, a chaos champion knight and a ronim from hachiman. Balthus best warriors, but that is open to set for other characters.

These two parties go after Balthus as hes fleeing trought Craggen Heights in despair. And as the time pass by, amongst terrible nightmares (Balthus memories), and his terrible voice inside his head, he feels hes losing control and Balthus starts to take control from time to time. And like ive said, this is not a single clone, he gradually are having access for all of his memories and powers.

Also, i would like to work on some point of interest at Craggen Heights. If anyone could tell me what the Viper Peak is all about i thanks in advance. Im super curious about that place and also The Needles, at Craggen Heights. Or any curious lore about that specific set. Will be much apreciated.

[Per]

It's just that it could seem like you are assuming rather a lot more things than might be wise or necessary in RPG scenario design.

First, you're assuming Citadel of Chaos ending in a specific way, and either you would have to brute force it in a solo session with the Dire player, or you could I guess simply narrate it as part of the background, so that the player actually knows what's going on (unless of course they're also gamebook aficionados so you can just say, "So imagine you beat CoC, and then..."), but in either case it would presumably lessen the effect of the twist if there's been no player agency involved before it.

Second, I was unsure at first, but it seems the scenario would in fact require the full narration in your previous post, at which point some people I've played with would probably just interrupt to say, "What, no, I don't do that" and openly defy you to hit them with instant death before they might consider submitting to Lucretia, or others might listen but then at whichever point I expect them to start offering input they might say, "No, go on telling me what I do and think and feel, it seems to be working great so far." But others might just be kind enough to play along.

Third, it also seems you've already decided what the plans and strategies of the two parties are going to be once the adventure gets going post-twist, which I guess makes some sense in the case of the Dire player, since he's effectively a slave anyway (but let's hope the player is perfectly fine with this).

In summation, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to ask at which point the players themselves are actually needed, or if they can just as well go and buy pizza and you might have resolved the adventure by the time they come back and then you can play a board game or something. But that's an RPG philosophy sidetrack I guess.

[fertobardi]

Feb 6, 2024 21:39:29 GMT Per said:

It's just that it could seem like you are assuming rather a lot more things than might be wise or necessary in RPG scenario design.

First, you're assuming Citadel of Chaos ending in a specific way, and either you would have to brute force it in a solo session with the Dire player, or you could I guess simply narrate it as part of the background, so that the player actually knows what's going on (unless of course they're also gamebook aficionados so you can just say, "So imagine you beat CoC, and then..."), but in either case it would presumably lessen the effect of the twist if there's been no player agency involved before it.

Second, I was unsure at first, but it seems the scenario would in fact require the full narration in your previous post, at which point some people I've played with would probably just interrupt to say, "What, no, I don't do that" and openly defy you to hit them with instant death before they might consider submitting to Lucretia, or others might listen but then at whichever point I expect them to start offering input they might say, "No, go on telling me what I do and think and feel, it seems to be working great so far." But others might just be kind enough to play along.

Third, it also seems you've already decided what the plans and strategies of the two parties are going to be once the adventure gets going post-twist, which I guess makes some sense in the case of the Dire player, since he's effectively a slave anyway (but let's hope the player is perfectly fine with this).

In summation, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to ask at which point the players themselves are actually needed, or if they can just as well go and buy pizza and you might have resolved the adventure by the time they come back and then you can play a board game or something. But that's an RPG philosophy sidetrack I guess.

Thanks for the inputs. But in that specific case scenario of a COC (my take) sequel, a lot more than a regular RPG play has to be said, to dont turn this an almost suicidal run pretty much repetitive and uninteresting backtrack of all the rooms and monsters again. At least for my tastes.

Having said that and pointing in what you said about (the linearity?) and possible disliking of my Balthus actions this is still part of the background anyways. And if no one wants to play him because of that theres plenty of room with the 2 other parties while he can turn in to a NPC.

Those two parties having to track and pin down him while explore whats hidden at Craggen Heights i do think have the potential to be a good one but maybe it can go wrong.

Anyways im not playing it now soon because my local group is already stuck in another adventure having to deal with a necromancer raid on the village they are in and im kinda procrastinating it because not in the mood to run a larger scale battle. This is OT so sorry to share this.

Just in case someone knows how can i found Horror of Craggen Rocks by Nathan Page, please let me know. I will start also to read Trolltooth Wars to add more lore for the Craggen Heights adventure.

[Per]

Google works for Horror: www.oocities.org/ffbooks/craggen.htm