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Post by petch on Feb 2, 2022 23:16:06 GMT
Despite being relatively late to the party, Green would become a major player for Fighting Fantasy, releasing several entries to the series both for Puffin and post Puffin - the only author to do so besides Ian Livingstone (to date, that is, and this is subject to possible imminent change pending the release of the new Steve Jackson effort). With his earliest efforts being written as a young man, a clear maturing of style can be evidenced through his works. Will his earlier or later output prove to be the most popular?
Poll closes at 10pm Saturday 5th.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 3, 2022 0:08:55 GMT
I'll be the lone Templar to champion Knights of Doom. I know it has balance issues but I feel it has the strongest story out of all Green's books.
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Post by The Count on Feb 3, 2022 5:56:43 GMT
Despite Howl being my highest ranking in my thread, replaying it leaves me irritated. It will probably win.
So Bloodbones gets my vote as it's the least annoying to replay.
His gamebooks are by far the most overrated.
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Post by Wilf on Feb 3, 2022 7:28:57 GMT
A close call between Knights Of Doom and Bloodbones, despite both books' gameplay issues.
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Post by terrysalt on Feb 3, 2022 8:13:48 GMT
Curse, Bloodbones and Storm aren't bad books but I found them to be his weaker efforts. If you take the game part out of it, I really like Spellbreaker. I played (not entirely honestly) the game to death as a teen and I have a lot of good memories of it. Knights has a lot going for it. I really like picking equipment at the start and I was rather happy to see the assassin's dagger, the coolest spell in Dungeoneer by far, actually make it into a mainline entry. Howl was quite cool and I did like having a narrower skill range than most books which makes it easier to set the difficulty at an appropriate level. Plus the slow transformation into a werewolf and the associated stat increases really helped with the sense of progression. But in the end I had to go with Night of the Necromancer. A gamebook that incorporates death into the story instead of just ending when you die was really intriguing to me. Taking over people's bodies and learning the various ghost skills was a lot of fun too.
But it's a tough call, Jon is up there with Stephen Hand and Paul Mason as far as my favourite authors go.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 3, 2022 8:36:50 GMT
I would have voted Bloodbones if it weren't for the 'roll 2d6 3 times and don't get doubles', which is probably hypocritical when my preferred book has an even tougher random roll to not be knocked out. Yes, Knights Of Doom for its action, replayability and atmosphere.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 3, 2022 11:27:29 GMT
Howl of the Werewolf is a very well-written and fun gamebook with a great premise, multiple routes to victory, fun powers to play about with and great illustrations. Green basically took all the criticisms of his previous books on board and delivered an objectively impressive gamebook. But I voted for the barely playtested Bloodbones instead. It's a tight thing but despite the ridiculous difficulty, I feel Bloodbones just has a bit more character to it - I particularly like facing off against Cinnibar's various crewmembers and some of the Moonrunner-esque devious traps they set for you.
Spellbreaker is a great read, I particularly like the focus on herblore and the very medieval presentation of magic. It's a pity it's just broken as a gamebook. Also that maze is awful - full of annoyances and punishes you for escaping it too quickly.
Knights of Doom just always seems to really drag for me. I like a lot of the set pieces but it feels like you have to go through so many of them that they become tedious. Throw in the fact it's almost as broken as Spellbreaker and I don't really rate it.
Curse of the Mummy is again really difficult and I always find it a bit bland to boot. Not sure dungeon adventures are Jonathan's strong point.
Stormslayer is really good fun - I like the level of freedom and the minor bonuses and penalties caused by the day of the week and your starting item. Mount Pire unfortunately kills it a little bit - it's another maze that punishes you for finishing it too quickly. The artwork is also very poor, looking like it was still at its preliminary sketch stage when the book was published.
I admire Night - it has a lot of great ideas and the different stages of the afterlife was a great concept. As others on this forum have shown, it also takes a lot of thought in knowing what to go for and what to avoid - it's like a mathematical puzzle disguised with some very elaborate window dressing. Unfortunately, I always find I'm getting bored of it far before I get near the end. Also the dog thing bugs me more than it should.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 3, 2022 12:20:09 GMT
Howl of the Werewolf is a very well-written and fun gamebook with a great premise, multiple routes to victory, fun powers to play about with and great illustrations. Green basically took all the criticisms of his previous books on board and delivered an objectively impressive gamebook. But I voted for the barely playtested Bloodbones instead. It's a tight thing but despite the ridiculous difficulty, I feel Bloodbones just has a bit more character to it - I particularly like facing off against Cinnibar's various crewmembers and some of the Moonrunner-esque devious traps they set for you. Spellbreaker is a great read, I particularly like the focus on herblore and the very medieval presentation of magic. It's a pity it's just broken as a gamebook. Also that maze is awful - full of annoyances and punishes you for escaping it too quickly. Knights of Doom just always seems to really drag for me. I like a lot of the set pieces but it feels like you have to go through so many of them that they become tedious. Throw in the fact it's almost as broken as Spellbreaker and I don't really rate it. Curse of the Mummy is again really difficult and I always find it a bit bland to boot. Not sure dungeon adventures are Jonathan's strong point. Stormslayer is really good fun - I like the level of freedom and the minor bonuses and penalties caused by the day of the week and your starting item. Mount Pire unfortunately kills it a little bit - it's another maze that punishes you for finishing it too quickly. The artwork is also very poor, looking like it was still at its preliminary sketch stage when the book was published. I admire Night - it has a lot of great ideas and the different stages of the afterlife was a great concept. As others on this forum have shown, it also takes a lot of thought in knowing what to go for and what to avoid - it's like a mathematical puzzle disguised with some very elaborate window dressing. Unfortunately, I always find I'm getting bored of it far before I get near the end. Also the dog thing bugs me more than it should. I don't want to argue with you about Knights Of Doom, because I think it's flawed as as well, and very nearly voted for Bloodbones. I don't think it's as broken as Spellbreaker though, as Sylas says in the solution thread there is a route via which you don't have to fail the Skill roll, with which your odds of success are comparable to other FF.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 3, 2022 13:10:26 GMT
I don't think it's as broken as Spellbreaker though, as Sylas says in the solution thread there is a route via which you don't have to fail the Skill roll, with which your odds of success are comparable to other FF. Even with Sylas' solution you have at very best a 1 in 4 chance of beating it. Plus you have to be a lot better at ciphers than I am . But yes, it's not quite Spellbreaker level.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 3, 2022 17:39:28 GMT
I can understand the split votes here as there is a definite shift of effort over time from storytelling to gamebook mechanics.
Nevertheless the unique selling point here is the choice element which requires the mechanics to be basically fair to make the book enjoyable. This makes his later efforts much stronger.
I had to go for Night of the Necromancer for this reason. Also it fits the old requirement of being able to be completed with minimum rolls. This means Howl of the Werewolf is also a contender.
I think I agree with others where the reason seems to be they can be considered overly complicated. I like the baroque intricacy. So there is an element of interpretation and possibly age involved. I wonder if the reason for this is the original readers are now likely to much more receptive to baroque masterpieces. I think this applies to me.
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Post by vastariner on Feb 3, 2022 23:01:54 GMT
Necromancer. I love the way you can replay it on a harder setting.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 3, 2022 23:16:25 GMT
Necromancer. I love the way you can replay it on a harder setting. Would this be a reference to The Tin Man App, and if so how does the hard mode differ from the standard mode? For example Forest Of Doom has a hard mode where you start out with 1d6 + 4 skill. I imagine playing Night with Skill 5-6 would be exceptionally difficult.
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Post by vastariner on Feb 4, 2022 9:02:26 GMT
I mean when you have the chance to spook a body. Try completing it with Toadstone for instance.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 4, 2022 13:19:03 GMT
I mean when you have the chance to spook a body. Try completing it with Toadstone for instance. Unless you have magical powers surely this is impossible? I would guess the weakest you can succeed with would be Umberto?
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Post by nathanh on Feb 4, 2022 13:46:21 GMT
Green's books tend to score highly with me. Night of the Necromancer is the pick of the bunch, everything about it is excellent. Howl and Stormslayer are close behind though. Sad there's no votes for Stormslayer, it's a great book, apart from the art which seems unfinished.
If Spellbreaker wasn't broken it'd be a big contender too.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 4, 2022 13:48:15 GMT
I don't think you need a holy or magic weapon, given that, you could probably succeed with Inglenook the cook, who doesn't have the + on the roll to spook him (IIRC Umberto tries to banish spirit i.e. kill you if you try to possess him). Technically, I think you only need a physical body to pass one point, and after that you have your own lives. So, you can try out more interesting people such as say Blondel The Bard. I think it's real interesting if you don't acquire the spook ability and choose to use the armour or your body, which NOTN solution thread doesn't get into (and ignores in its calculations of success permutations, obviously). You've got TWO possible alternate routes - even if they are tricky and imperfect - and you've got the choice of which to go for.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Feb 4, 2022 16:56:32 GMT
I don't think you need a holy or magic weapon, given that, you could probably succeed with Inglenook the cook, who doesn't have the + on the roll to spook him (IIRC Umberto tries to banish spirit i.e. kill you if you try to possess him). Technically, I think you only need a physical body to pass one point, and after that you have your own lives. So, you can try out more interesting people such as say Blondel The Bard. I think it's real interesting if you don't acquire the spook ability and choose to use the armour or your body, which NOTN solution thread doesn't get into (and ignores in its calculations of success permutations, obviously). You've got TWO possible alternate routes - even if they are tricky and imperfect - and you've got the choice of which to go for. You can definitely Spook Umberto. You are mixing up his very helpful ability to instantly banish you if you want to gain an extra death to acquire the Black Hourglass. This route is realised if decide to stay after one question rather than erm going down the stairs into the catacombs. One of my solutions was a maxed out solution where you acquire Rest In Peace. This was why I loved this when doing the solutions as so many different paths can be explored depending on how strong you are. I suppose this could be a project to see if you can succeed with Umberto or less. I believe the Gatekeeper could well be a stumbling block for some avatars. Also you will probably have to use luck to escape the animated dinosaurs encounter.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 4, 2022 17:14:59 GMT
I don't think you need a holy or magic weapon, given that, you could probably succeed with Inglenook the cook, who doesn't have the + on the roll to spook him (IIRC Umberto tries to banish spirit i.e. kill you if you try to possess him). Technically, I think you only need a physical body to pass one point, and after that you have your own lives. So, you can try out more interesting people such as say Blondel The Bard. I think it's real interesting if you don't acquire the spook ability and choose to use the armour or your body, which NOTN solution thread doesn't get into (and ignores in its calculations of success permutations, obviously). You've got TWO possible alternate routes - even if they are tricky and imperfect - and you've got the choice of which to go for. You can definitely Spook Umberto. You are mixing up his very helpful ability to instantly banish you if you want to gain an extra death to acquire the Black Hourglass. This route is realised if decide to stay after one question rather than erm going down the stairs into the catacombs. One of my solutions was a maxed out solution where you acquire Rest In Peace. This was why I loved this when doing the solutions as so many different paths can be explored depending on how strong you are. I suppose this could be a project to see if you can succeed with Umberto or less. I believe the Gatekeeper could well be a stumbling block for some avatars. Also you will probably have to use luck to escape the animated dinosaurs encounter. NOTN 282 If you fail the Will + 2 test to take over Umberto's body "If it is greater, the warrior-priest of Telak resists your attempts to seize control and instead attempts to banish you to the Land of the Dead. Test your Luck. If you are lucky, you resist the pull of the Dead Winds and flee the Chapel; turn to 13 to try another approach. If you are unlucky, the priest manages to complete his exorcism spell; write the number 13 on your adventure sheet and turn to 100" . I did say tries to Banish you (I've a feeling you misunderstood that to mean I thought you don't get a shot), of course if you should be successful you gain good stats and his Banish Spirit ability and his extra-effective warhammer.
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Post by petch on Feb 5, 2022 22:18:16 GMT
I have to admit, I thought Howl of the Werewolf was going to run away with this one. It was a pleasant surprise to see this was a much tighter and more interesting competition than I envisaged. For a long time, it looked like Night of the Necromancer was going to nick it, but Howl scraped through by the narrowest of margins in the end.
Nice too, to see a respectable amount of votes for both Knights of Doom and Bloodbones - a message, perhaps, to certain other Final Fantasy writers that readers can forgive gameplay issues to an extent if a book is well written enough?
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Post by daredevil123 on Feb 5, 2022 23:33:36 GMT
I'm really surprised no one voted for Stormslayer. I went for Howl, but Storm is still one of my favourite FF books - it's imaginative, well-written and has some great 'power-ups' and equipment to collect along the way. I also love how your character is a celebrity who's already had countless adventures.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 6, 2022 1:10:04 GMT
I'm really surprised no one voted for Stormslayer. I went for Howl, but Storm is still one of my favourite FF books - it's imaginative, well-written and has some great 'power-ups' and equipment to collect along the way. I also love how your character is a celebrity who's already had countless adventures. I'm guessing that, despite the awesome gameplay, the story isn't the most original and a lot of the book is fan service.
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Post by terrysalt on Feb 6, 2022 1:16:35 GMT
Stormslayer didn't rate as highly for me because of the hassle of tracking which day it was. And it never ended up mattering what day it was in any of my playthroughs which added to the frustration with it.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 6, 2022 1:47:11 GMT
I'm really surprised no one voted for Stormslayer. I went for Howl, but Storm is still one of my favourite FF books - it's imaginative, well-written and has some great 'power-ups' and equipment to collect along the way. I also love how your character is a celebrity who's already had countless adventures. Disadvantage of only being able to vote for one I guess. It's a good book, but it's up against other good books. Probably my third favourite on the list.
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Post by misomiso on Feb 7, 2022 17:12:27 GMT
Missed the vote and glad that 'Howl' won but WOW this vote didn't turn out the way I thought!
NO votes for Stormslayer, and Night of Necromancer a very close 2nd?! Stormslayer is very good imo, well constructed and with a good story, where as Night of the Necromancer is terrible!
Very strange!
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Jonathan Green
Squire
Posts: 49
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Jonathan Green on Mar 24, 2022 14:04:36 GMT
Missed the vote and glad that 'Howl' won but WOW this vote didn't turn out the way I thought! NO votes for Stormslayer, and Night of Necromancer a very close 2nd?! Stormslayer is very good imo, well constructed and with a good story, where as Night of the Necromancer is terrible! Very strange! Hi Misomiso I'm curious to know why you didn't like Night of the Necromancer.
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 24, 2022 15:45:37 GMT
This is the real Jon Green? Someone claimed to be Dave Morris posting on the Can You Brexit? Without Breaking Britain messageboard, when they were some random. My single biggest criticism of Night Of The Necromancer is it becomes too easy when you acquire Captain Cador's body (it's more interesting if you can't acquire the spook ability).
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Jonathan Green
Squire
Posts: 49
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Jonathan Green on Mar 24, 2022 15:58:31 GMT
This is the real Jon Green? Someone claimed to be Dave Morris posting on the Can You Brexit? Without Breaking Britain messageboard, when they were some random. My single biggest criticism of Night Of The Necromancer is it becomes too easy when you acquire Captain Cador's body (it's more interesting if you can't acquire the spook ability). Thanks, Misomiso. I'm always keen to learn how I can improve my gamebooks. And yes, it really is me. ;-)
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 24, 2022 16:11:20 GMT
This is the real Jon Green? Someone claimed to be Dave Morris posting on the Can You Brexit? Without Breaking Britain messageboard, when they were some random. My single biggest criticism of Night Of The Necromancer is it becomes too easy when you acquire Captain Cador's body (it's more interesting if you can't acquire the spook ability). Thanks, Misomiso. I'm always keen to learn how I can improve my gamebooks. And yes, it really is me. ;-) Well, I'm Charles X here, not Misomiso, so hopefully Misomiso himself can respond to your question and tell us why he criticises Night Of The Necromancer as "terrible".
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Post by misomiso on Mar 24, 2022 18:21:30 GMT
Ha ha! Oh no! My keyboard warrior hyperbole has come home to roost!
It just wasn't for me I'm afraid; I really liked Stormslayer and think Howl is amazing (Really incredibly achievement), but I just remember I couldn't really gel with Necromancer at all and so I just didn't like it - I was probably being WAY too harsh in my criticism but I was so shocked it do so well in the poll when StormSlayer got no votes! Crazy.
I have ordered another copy though and will be replaying it so I can give it a fair chance, and will report back with a new review when I am done!
Best dude and love your books though!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Mar 24, 2022 18:37:16 GMT
I believe the mods normally give a VIP a special status. This must be an amusing joke?
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