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Post by CharlesX on Mar 21, 2024 16:46:08 GMT
The evil twin of the Hopes for FF in 2024 and beyond thread, this is asking what you would rather not have in more FF, and what you are afraid will go ahead. For example:
Errata (which remain much a problem even in the playtesting era). Particularly high difficulty level (lower is less of a problem, I don't even mind none if its well-written).
A gamebook written by a celebrity who has insufficient understanding and\or ability of the gamebook format (cough). A retread of old plot points. For example, Shadow Of The Giants was relatively original and did not include Yaztromo. I've a feeling Sir Ian's new Deathtrap Dungeon gamebook won't be as good as even Trial Of Champions, and will somehow feature shopkeepers, with the option to attack them. A gamebook with filler and\or one that is fewer than 400 references. Sir Ian's city adventures have too many encounters with pickpockets, card sharks, and "rat-men" or something with Skill 4 Stamina 2; Steve has filler in Sorcery! although I like his tendency to write ambitious gamebooks.
I personally:
Would rather the adventure were not city-based and also another retread where the adventurer is facing a well-established foe or area. I'm not above another adventure set in Deathtrap Dungeon or Blacksand if the writer has an actual story to tell. Would rather there were few instant-death scenes as I feel these are cruel and cheap. Something depends on the author, I'd readily accept Steve Jackson does these miles better than Sir Ian, and further, that this is very subjective. Would rather companions and opponents were well-written. Sir Ian is sometimes good at this, sometimes not, Steve is often good, Jon Green tends to create memorable characters as well as worlds. Would rather characters were not shoe-horned in like Lord Azzur or Throm (or say Yaztromo). Although I think Lord Azzur is really good, I'd only want him or a conversation with him if he adds to the story. The references in Secrets Of Salamonis work because they feel natural instead of forced.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 21, 2024 18:30:32 GMT
A new version of Deathtrap Dungeon would be playing to Sir Ian Livingstone's strengths as a gamebook writer. Fiendish traps, the luck of the draw, paths that damn you to failure, instant deaths, powerful enemies to fight, and occasionally bizarre or outlandish encounters. I'm looking forward to it. Fingers crossed it will be thoroughly playtested! So in some respects [specifically when talking about a potential DD3] I suppose I'm disagreeing with you, Charles X. For other, future books though, yes I'm with you. Let us have the world expanded and not necessarily more re-treads.
I'm glad to see that sense has prevailed and good artwork has been restored, and we will no longer be going down the path of greyscale or low-effort drawings.
For FF in 2024 and beyond. I hope the books sell well, but we have to realise that the world has moved on and we'll never see the sort of sales of the 1980s. I do hope that the FF of the future will not have the tendency to include ideas and themes that will forever date the books to 2016 onwards - I'm specifically the sort of stuff we see on Twitter and the polarising ideologies that dominate it. I want the books to be rather more timeless and universal.
I did a rant about 4 years ago about what i did and didn't want, and I think most of it is still relevant.
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Post by paperexplorer on Mar 21, 2024 23:52:01 GMT
My fear would be FF becomes just a hobby for Ian who will release a book every 2-3 years and that's all there is.
Not a knock on Ian btw, love his books, just that there seems to be no ambition to do any more than that from owners or publishers.
I'm sure there'd be plenty of existing authors who'd love to contribute (I'm one) if it came to it, but I don't see the desire from anyone on the FF side
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 22, 2024 9:32:19 GMT
My fear would be FF becomes just a hobby for Ian who will release a book every 2-3 years and that's all there is. Not a knock on Ian btw, love his books, just that there seems to be no ambition to do any more than that from owners or publishers. I'm sure there'd be plenty of existing authors who'd love to contribute (I'm one) if it came to it, but I don't see the desire from anyone on the FF side You mean, you don't think it currently is just a hobby for Ian? Why would it be anything else? Your idea of authors that would love to contribute is probably true. To be quite honest, I am a little surprised that Ian hasn't already attempted to enlist a fan author or two to write a gamebook or two for peanuts (and love). It seems like it would be a winning strategy. That it hasn't happened rather supports the idea that it's no more than a hobby.
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trialmaster
Wanderer
Enter your message here...
Posts: 72
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Post by trialmaster on Mar 22, 2024 11:08:07 GMT
Maybe someone who knows Ian (HINT!) could suggest to him what the loyal FF fanbase would really like to see!
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 22, 2024 11:28:10 GMT
Maybe someone who knows Ian (HINT!) could suggest to him what the loyal FF fanbase would really like to see! That would be Jon Green, then. I haven't spoken to Ian in the last 34 years. But if the loyal FF fanbase doesn't constitute an overly large proportion of sales, then its preferences aren't really that important. There is also the problem that 'loyalty' effectively reduces bargaining power. If FF fans are loyal to FF, then they are more likely to stick with it despite being screwed over.
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 22, 2024 12:33:24 GMT
A new version of Deathtrap Dungeon would be playing to Sir Ian Livingstone's strengths as a gamebook writer. Fiendish traps, the luck of the draw, paths that damn you to failure, instant deaths, powerful enemies to fight, and occasionally bizarre or outlandish encounters. I'm looking forward to it. Fingers crossed it will be thoroughly playtested! So in some respects [specifically when talking about a potential DD3] I suppose I'm disagreeing with you, Charles X. For other, future books though, yes I'm with you. Let us have the world expanded and not necessarily more re-treads. I'm glad to see that sense has prevailed and good artwork has been restored, and we will no longer be going down the path of greyscale or low-effort drawings. For FF in 2024 and beyond. I hope the books sell well, but we have to realise that the world has moved on and we'll never see the sort of sales of the 1980s. I do hope that the FF of the future will not have the tendency to include ideas and themes that will forever date the books to 2016 onwards - I'm specifically the sort of stuff we see on Twitter and the polarising ideologies that dominate it. I want the books to be rather more timeless and universal. I did a rant about 4 years ago about what i did and didn't want, and I think most of it is still relevant. A lot about DD3 or whatever Sir Ian decides to call it will depend on difficulty level - both FF set in DD were too hard. From Shadow Of The Giants though it seems like Sir Ian is writing gamebooks with moderate difficulty and more than one way through tough situations, so hopefully he'll continue on that path, as you say he may mix that with difficulty as well. Artwork is also a bit of a deal-breaker for me.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Mar 23, 2024 0:53:11 GMT
Maybe someone who knows Ian (HINT!) could suggest to him what the loyal FF fanbase would really like to see! What DOES the fanbase like to see? I'm talking realistically. We could name a hundred and one things that we want but which of those are likely achievable, raise interest, marketable, etc, without coming across as asking too much or being rude? Pretty sure everyone's going to have very different opinions on what they personally want versus what they feel the fanbase wants. If you could make 3 suggestions to Ian, what would they be?
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Post by King Gillibran on Mar 23, 2024 12:04:29 GMT
Let other authors write especially Jonathan Green or have a competition and if any of the entries are good enough publish them. Write a good olD DD book Have books with good artwork like Mike Mccarthy
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 23, 2024 14:38:27 GMT
Be ambitious and write action-filled adventure, perhaps with more than 400 references so long as they aren't filler\unimportant. Surprise the audience, even if its in a location we've seen before (e.g. helpful magic instead of cliched cursed handkies). Instead of weak enemies and traps, memorable ones (in a good way, unlike Charlie Higson's). Innovate. Before Shadow Of The Giants Sir Ian's FF did not have many new concepts and retread quite a bit. The different swords in Shadow Of The Giants is just OK and I'd love it if Sir Ian wrote FF that made me feel "wow!" in the way Steve Jackson has and much of Sir Ian's earlier work did.
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 23, 2024 17:36:41 GMT
Maybe someone who knows Ian (HINT!) could suggest to him what the loyal FF fanbase would really like to see! Why should Sir Ian care what FF loyalists would really like, though? I'd rather he surprised us (as he did with Shadow Of The Giants) than he purposely wrote a 'fan service\populist' adventure that excluded Yaztromo because he didn't appeal to people who read much FF, included a collaboration with Green that neither really had their heart in, and a shopping list of other things that weren't the kind of adventure he wanted to write. For example, if he has in mind a sci-fi adventure, which have never been popular either for audiences or fans, then it might turn out to be a good one, who knows. Where I agree more is about playtesting and errata.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 1, 2024 15:08:58 GMT
My fear would be FF becomes just a hobby for Ian who will release a book every 2-3 years and that's all there is. Not a knock on Ian btw, love his books, just that there seems to be no ambition to do any more than that from owners or publishers. I'm sure there'd be plenty of existing authors who'd love to contribute (I'm one) if it came to it, but I don't see the desire from anyone on the FF side Comment liked. But it might be worthwhile to have a think about what would have become of FF in the recent past were it not for IL. Am i right in saying that FF are the only gamebooks available in the High Street? All the rest, including Lone Wolf, are now only to be found at trade stands at conventions or over the internet. How much of this is down to IL?
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 1, 2024 15:15:44 GMT
My fear would be FF becomes just a hobby for Ian who will release a book every 2-3 years and that's all there is. Not a knock on Ian btw, love his books, just that there seems to be no ambition to do any more than that from owners or publishers. I'm sure there'd be plenty of existing authors who'd love to contribute (I'm one) if it came to it, but I don't see the desire from anyone on the FF side Comment liked. But it might be worthwhile to have a think about what would have become of FF in the recent past were it not for IL. Am i right in saying that FF are the only gamebooks available in the High Street? All the rest, including Lone Wolf, are now only to be found at trade stands at conventions or over the internet. How much of this is down to IL? There have been a very slight interest in gamebooks for younger people. Nothing like when it was popular, but along the lines of retro\antique feeling. Whether they are only in the very large bookstores I couldn't say. I'm questioning how much High Street sales matter when it is increasingly irrelevant these days and will only be more so in coming years.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 1, 2024 15:43:08 GMT
I'm questioning how much High Street sales matter when it is increasingly irrelevant these days and will only be more so in coming years. That's a good point, and one i was wondering about myself, even as I wrote that last message. Does it even matter?
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Post by a moderator on Apr 6, 2024 15:04:06 GMT
Tangential discussion of Usborne books moved to dedicated thread here.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 19, 2024 14:00:02 GMT
My fear would be FF becomes just a hobby for Ian who will release a book every 2-3 years and that's all there is. Not a knock on Ian btw, love his books, just that there seems to be no ambition to do any more than that from owners or publishers. I'm sure there'd be plenty of existing authors who'd love to contribute (I'm one) if it came to it, but I don't see the desire from anyone on the FF side You mean, you don't think it currently is just a hobby for Ian? Why would it be anything else? Your idea of authors that would love to contribute is probably true. To be quite honest, I am a little surprised that Ian hasn't already attempted to enlist a fan author or two to write a gamebook or two for peanuts (and love). It seems like it would be a winning strategy. That it hasn't happened rather supports the idea that it's no more than a hobby. Even the more well-written online FF seem to me to fail the quality control test, being light years away from professional-level albeit enjoyable enough. What sleepyscholar 's suggested isn't actually a world away from enlisting a bored celebrity who has a passing interest in FF (Charlie Higson) or a Fantasy fan (Rhianna Pratchett), my guess is neither worked for the pay nor would their royalties surpass expectations. The unarguably better gamebook by Rhianna Pratchett was pretty middling but dragged down by gaming inconsistencies and errors which professionals might have noticed. As gamebooks are no longer remotely popular I reckon most FF writers aren't working for the money, Jon Green repeatedly isn't. You Are The Hero documents a number of rejected gamebooks which sound miles better than online fanfic but miles worse than things which were published, because even the drossy ones had originality as well as their shortcomings. Fanfic tends to be tribute but not to work terribly well on its own. As human beings we love originality and surprises.
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Post by misomiso on Jul 19, 2024 15:15:18 GMT
You mean, you don't think it currently is just a hobby for Ian? Why would it be anything else? Your idea of authors that would love to contribute is probably true. To be quite honest, I am a little surprised that Ian hasn't already attempted to enlist a fan author or two to write a gamebook or two for peanuts (and love). It seems like it would be a winning strategy. That it hasn't happened rather supports the idea that it's no more than a hobby. Even the more well-written online FF seem to me to fail the quality control test, being light years away from professional-level albeit enjoyable enough. What sleepyscholar 's suggested isn't actually a world away from enlisting a bored celebrity who has a passing interest in FF (Charlie Higson) or a Fantasy fan (Rihanna Pratchett), my guess is neither worked for the pay nor would their royalties surpass expectations. The unarguably better gamebook by Rihanna Pratchett was pretty middling but dragged down by gaming inconsistencies and errors which professionals might have noticed. As gamebooks are no longer remotely popular I reckon most FF writers aren't working for the money, Jon Green repeatedly isn't. You Are The Hero documents a number of rejected gamebooks which sound miles better than online fanfic but miles worse than things which were published, because even the drossy ones had originality as well as their shortcomings. Fanfic tends to be tribute but not to work terribly well on its own. As human beings we love originality and surprises.
I think now if they published any more they would be significantly better.
I was very surprised to hear that in the past there had been NO playtesting at all for a lot of books, but now I believe there are several beta readers as well as playtesters, and these SIGNIFICANLTY increase the quality of the book. Errors still get through, however the general quality increases.
If another guest author wrote a book, my guess is the FF 'establishment' would help them out a lot more, and the test readers would get rid of most of the errors.
I feel that in the past because of their status as books there was a reluctance to interfere to much with the author, but now with the amount of game design knowledge we have we know that to get the best product you need to iterate, iterate, iterate, and get feedback as early as possible.
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