kieran
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Post by kieran on Jul 13, 2024 21:37:22 GMT
games that were basically find the needle in the haystack, Haha, very well put. What the heck even was that third game?
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 23, 2024 16:15:30 GMT
Revenge of the Cybermen The Cybermen seem a bit more human in this story. By that I don't mean that they're in any way sympathetic, but their mannerisms and way of speaking seem a lot less robotic than previously. I don't see that as a bad thing as it helps them stand out a bit from the Daleks and it allows for some decent banter between the leader and the Doctor and Sarah. I can't remember if they could fire weapons from their heads in their last appearance, but it certainly seems an improvement on those weird screen weapons they used to use. All in all, I though this was a decent but somewhat underbaked story. It was an interesting idea having Kellman, the double-agent, turn out in fact to be a triple agent. He was certainly prepared to kill his fellow humans, but his goal was eliminating a threat to the galaxy so it's not clear whether, a bit like Galloway in Death to the Daleks, he was prepared to do some great evils to achieve some greater good, or he was just hoping to get a lot of gold as a reward - the other characters speculate that it's the latter but his saving Harry from the rockfall suggests somewhat nobler intentions. Speaking of Harry, he's in good comic form here and he shows quite a bit of bravery. It's not a great Sarah episode though, she spends a lot of time captured and/or complaining. I found the Doctor a bit irritating in this one, many of Baker's attempts at humour didn't work for me and downplayed scenes that should have been dramatic. The rest of the characters were ok, a bit too thin to really like or dislike any of them. The one crewman using his buckle to blow up a Cyberman was pretty badass. Using the Cybermats against their masters was clever and well set up, but I kinda feel they shouldn't have been so effective. And speaking of effective, if the Cybermen are so weak to gold, why are the Vogan weapons so ineffective if that's what they're firing? And if they're not firing gold, shouldn't they have been? Was disappointed with Revenge Of The Cybermen. The Doctor's normal jovial style (here, even more than normal) and ad lib's didn't work, although we know from the later Genesis Of The Daleks Tom Baker can act well, and in a serious manner. There's a line somewhere the Vogans don't know the Cybermen are vulnerable to gold, and even if they were to, I thought physics and chemistry would make a gold-firing weapon difficult? I thought Sarah's being captured was forced and out-of-character.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Jul 23, 2024 18:08:33 GMT
I thought physics and chemistry would make a gold-firing weapon difficult? Ha, quite possibly! Although doesn't Ace slingshot gold sovereigns at them pretty effectively later on?
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 24, 2024 18:06:23 GMT
Series 18 was a very mixed bunch, including two contenders for Worst Story Ever. State of Decay I absolutely loved this one. The plot is definitely pretty out there, but it's played with utter conviction so you can just accept using a rocket to stake a giant vampire. I really liked the idea of a rocket gradually morphing into a spooky medieval tower and the ship's crew becoming ravenous vampires. The vampire crew were great villains, you can tell the actors are really relishing the roles with their over-stylised movements - coupled with the excellent set design and lighting, this feels like a Hammer Horror with a sci-fi twist. The supporting characters are good too, I particularly liked Tarak. It was interesting that the villagers were more keen to rebel in the end than those who had been making preparations for fighting back for so long - after so many years of patient planning I imagine it would be quite hard to decide whether you've done enough to stand a chance. There's also some amusing banter between the Doctor and Romana and even Adric has a few amusing moments - I almost bought him wanting to become a vampire, and who can blame him really with Romana just tiptoeing away when Camilla decides to feast on him? It's also nice to see my bro K-9 actually being useful again even if his role is fairly small. The only real negative is how did the Doctor know where the great vampire would be to aim the rocket at his heart? Not really a biggy though. Speaking of the great vampire, probably wise that no more was shown of him than his arm as seeing him in his entirety would have undoubtedly been a disappointment.Going to watch this after your recommendation. Though sounds like you could have roped in this meme:
Along with Buffy The Vampire Slayer though you're not amongst its fans.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 25, 2024 17:20:27 GMT
The Talons of Weng Chiang Elephant in the room: this is pretty racist. A Yellow Peril henchman played by a white man in make-up has not aged well and was probably a bit dated even in 1977. If you can look past that though, this story is a lot of fun. Leela really comes into her own in this story, charging into action at every opportunity and actually being pretty capable at it too (bar when she proves absolutely useless at stabbing folk at the end and ends up a damsel in distress after all). The Doctor is in good form now, relishing his Sherlockian persona and drumming up some good banter with the amusing Professor Litefoot and Henry Gordon Jago. Despite the unfortunate racist stereotypes, Li H'sen Chiang proves to be a fairly complicated villain, seeming to suffer existential despair at the abandonment by his god. Mr Sin is creepy as hell too, reminding me of the plastic troll thing from Terror of the Autons. There's also some giant rats, a fair bit of action and the whole 19th Century look just seems to suit the series. There's a definite Jack the Ripper vibe to proceedings but with a sci-fi twist - the show did quite well in having a clear prostitute character while still keeping things suitable for the family. Unfortunately, Weng Chiang just isn't a great villain. The concept of a human who has stumbled into a facsimile of Time Lord technology and become a sort of god is a good one but he comes across as a whining, petty coward. Which I suppose was the point, but things definitely feel less fun when he takes over as the main villain. I saw Talons Of Weng-Chiang about 30 years ago on VHS, and remember it as an entertaining, if old and hackneyed, story that was definitely racist (perhaps not in the unbroadcastable way something like Song Of The South is). I've seen the first episode on BBC iPlayer, there doesn't seem to be any warning (at all) that this is racist. Imdb mentions Talons Of Weng-Chiang coming top in a couple of Who polls - this of course says nothing (rather the way Gates Of Death has done well on Goodreads) link. Having seen one episode I'm getting the feeling this story is "more Hubbard than Carpenter", that is, good but not amazing.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Jul 26, 2024 10:20:24 GMT
Like a lot of things to do with DW, it was a rush job. The original writer had to pull out at the last minute and so the script editor wrote Talons to replaced the abandoned script. And like a lot of things script editor Robert Holmes wrote, it was a mish-mash of influences - some of which might have been better second guessing about using. Riffing on Fu Manchu can work - but not if you do it without confronting the racist stereotypes. If Talons had had a positive Chinese character the Doctor works with and played by a Chinese person at that, some of the other lazy stereotypes *might* have been a bit more palatable.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2024 12:33:09 GMT
Series 5 and 6 Missing Episodes
The Abominable Snowmen
I liked the Tibetan monastery setting of this one and it had plenty of good characters though they were a bit too plentiful. The story moves very slowly as each of the characters is given focus and plot points and sadly it makes things a bit tiresome at times. I probably could have done without the whole Travers falsely accusing the Doctor sub-plot at the start as it ends up having very little relevance other than being filler. I also don't think we really needed both Padmasambhava and Songsten - the Intelligence could just control one without that control then having to be sub-contracted to someone else. These gripes aside, there's a good atmosphere to this one and solid performances if sometimes held back by a bit of a leaden script. Padmasambhava is very creepy and I loved finding out his backstory. It was an interesting touch that he has some level of pushback against the Intelligence, trying to protect the Doctor and the monks as much as he can. Krisong also had a strong character arc, going from hard-headed obstacle to a valuable ally as the mystery unfolds. The yeti robots are a bit underwhelming, but the Intelligence was an intriguing villain and the show did well keeping the viewer guessing as to what it was up to. It's a pity the writers couldn't think of something cleverer to defeat them then smashing stuff up. Jamie is at least quite useful here and Victoria, while somewhat wasted, has her moments. Not bad, but could have been a classic.
Fury from the Deep
This is an extremely effective horror story. Managing to make sea foam and seaweed creepy must have been a tall order, but the crew more than delivered here. The seaweedy people were also pretty cool, the scenes where characters start to feel ill are unsettling to watch and the scene where the two engineers scream at Mrs Harris has to be one of the most disturbing sequences in any episode. The tension throughout the story is well done too, with Robson snapping at everyone (clearly on the verge of a breakdown as revealed when he just crawls into bed at one stage) and the Doctor seemingly given into despair at one stage. I also appreciated the character Megan Jones wasn't some hard-headed bureaucrat (even if she is accompanied by one) - she realises what's at stake quite clearly and acts very supportively - very unusual for such a character. There are problems though and a lot of them have to do with Victoria. She's made a damsel in distress at least three times, she whines almost constantly (though props to her for being the first companion to realise that against all laws of probability, the TARDIS invariably lands in the middle of danger with every single journey), she doesn't tell anyone that the two engineers are seaweed people and in a ridiculous contrivance, it turns out her scream is exactly the right pitch to completely destroy the seaweed, including fully reverting those already converted, clothes in-tact and all. She also gets a very long drawn out goodbye at the end, which doesn't quite work for me. Victoria aside, there's also a ridiculous helicopter escape where the Doctor can do all these crazy maneuvers despite it being revealed in the next scene, he doesn't even know the basics of helicopter flight. Still, a solid story despite these issues. Also loved the Wanted poster for the Master - that certainly raises some questions!
The Space Pirates
Despite that rip-roaring title, this has a very pedestrian plot with not much to write home about (or write to a Fighting Fantazine Forum about either). There's a very obvious twist where one character turns out to be behind the hijackings and another somewhat less obvious twist where her old dad turns out to be alive all this time. And that's about all I can say about the story - otherwise it's mostly just people running around, barking orders at one another. Where it does a lot better is with its characters. The Doctor is in good form here, bouncing off Jamie and Zoe very well. I loved him explaining magnetism to Jamie and candles to Zoe. Clancey was also an entertaining character though his accent did seem to wander all around the world. I also liked the ruthless Caven and the pompous general. Unfortunately Madeleine was too naive to really take seriously - did she really think people wouldn't get hurt in all this chicanery?
Updated Series 5 Ranking
1. The Enemy of the World 2. Fury from the Deep 3. The Web of Fear 4. Tomb of the Cybermen 5. The Abominable Snowmen 6. The Wheel in Space 7. The Ice Warriors
Updated Series 6 Ranking 1. The War Games 2. The Invasion 3. The Dominators 4. The Mind Robber 5. The Space Pirates 6. The Seeds of Death 7. The Krotons
Ok, I had a feeling I had Victoria ranked a bit too high and Fury from the Deep really hit this home. I think she still had her moments in stories like The Enemy of the World but she's definitely not a great character overall. As for Jamie, the missing stories were pretty good outings for him. Not enough to save him from swathes of mediocrity in the other stories but I'll bump him a bit. the two of them can linger together between Adric and Turlough.
1. Jo 2. Steven 3. Leela 4. Ian 5. Sarah-Jane 6. Barbara 7. Romana 8. Ace 9. Ben 10. K-9 11. Liz 12. Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart 13. Peri 14. Vikki 15. Tegan 16. Nyssa 17. Harry 18. Zoe 19. Turlough 20. Jamie 21. Victoria 22. Adric 23. Polly 24. Mel 25. Dodo 26. Susan
So only the movie awaits...
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Post by scouserob on Aug 9, 2024 12:53:59 GMT
Looking at that season 5 list again... WOW! That has to be my favourite season. When the Ice Warriors is the weakest (I agree with its bottom ranking from the 6 I've seen.)
I love all of your top five which would also be mine though in the order: 1. The Web of Fear 2. The Enemy of the World 3. Fury from the Deep 4. The Abominable Snowmen 5. Tomb of the Cybermen
All of that coinciding top three, would be contenders for my favourite all time Doctor Who episodes.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2024 13:14:42 GMT
Looking at that season 5 list again... WOW! That has to be my favourite season. When the Ice Warriors is the weakest (I agree with its bottom ranking from the 6 I've seen.)
I love all of your top five which would also be mine though in the order: 1. The Web of Fear 2. The Enemy of the World 3. Fury from the Deep 4. The Abominable Snowmen 5. Tomb of the Cybermen
All of that coinciding top three, would be contenders for my favourite all time Doctor Who episodes. Interesting. What was it about Web of Fear that particularly grabbed you?
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Post by scouserob on Aug 9, 2024 13:47:45 GMT
The location: The near future (when released) deserted post-apocalyptic London. The claustrophobic base under siege setting of the London Underground. (So good I assumed it was filmed on location.) The great cast of characters complete with mystery saboteur, which really does keep you guessing. Proto-Unit with Colonel Lethbridge-Stewart who would surely have been a prime suspect without foreknowledge, as the stand out. That great outside Yeti v Soldiers fight, like a breath of fresh air after the tunnels. The Yeti and fungus work really well as threats slowly hemming everyone in. The final showdown and battle of wits between the Doctor and the Great Intelligence. Patrick Troughton at his best, outwitting and getting within a whisker of destroying his enemy. Jamie's sub-action-man Ian heroics messing everything up. 🤣 And they are just individual pieces of the whole which is so much more than the sum of those parts for me. Probably my favourite story... As an aside the late Chris Achilléos of Temple of Terror and Armies of Death cover fame also illustrated the cover of the Web of Fear novelisation. ![](https://i.imgur.com/lH4bdbX.png)
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2024 16:48:00 GMT
Proto-Unit with Colonel Lethbridge-Stewart who would surely have been a prime suspect without foreknowledge He was definitely mine!
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 12, 2024 10:09:10 GMT
Doctor Who: the Movie
Well, here we are at the end of Classic Who, at the movie that very briefly made me a Dr Who fan when I was an impressionable 10 year old. Some of my memories were a bit fuzzy - I remembered the 7th Doctor being gunned down by random gangsters (why not look outside before coming out of the TARDIS?), but I'd forgotten he actually lives on for quite a while until Grace accidentally butchers him on the operating table. I'd also forgotten (or more likely wasn't aware at the time) what an almighty cheesefest it is. I'm guessing some BBC Exec figured the way to revive the series was to appeal to an American market and that meant not only setting it in America with American actors (or Canadians pretending to be Americans), but you have to be as cheesy as possible. The acting is hammy and the script is melodramatic, filled with enough 'Noooooooooo's!' to make Darth Vader blush. The action scenes, while pretty tame, have non-stop rollicking music to (quite successfully, I must say) make them seem more exciting than they are. And Eric Roberts gives an absolute masterclass in ham acting, devouring every line with relish. Every scene with him is a joy and I particularly liked the chemistry the Master and Lee had ('This is an ambulance!'). McGann, on the other hand, kinda gets lost a bit. He doesn't seem to quite commit to the cheesiness in the way Roberts and Ashbrook (who does a great job as Grace, pitching the character just right between thrilled and exasperated) do. He's likeable enough in the role though and I imagine he could have been a decent Doctor with a bit more time (no pun intended). As for the plot, it's nonsense. It feels like the writers were making it up as it goes along - there's a thing in the TARDIS that can destroy the world for some reason, which can only be opened by human eyes for some reason. The Doctor, being only half-human (sorry, what?) has never opened it before. The Master needs a new body because the human one is falling apart except it seems fine most of the time. The world is destabilising for about the 5 minutes the Doctor needs to convince Grace he's telling the truth, but seems absolutely fine the rest of the time. The Master can spit on people, which burns them or freezes them or controls them as he needs. The Master gets to the clock first but for some reason doesn't steal it. It's probably best just to ignore the story and enjoy the ride and the banter between the four main characters. There's a few genuinely funny scenes too - I particularly liked Lee's double-take upon entering the TARDIS and the motorbike policeman later doing a U-Turn to get out of there. A few oddities that struck me though aside from the half-human thing - why did the Daleks of all beings try the Master for his crimes? Why does the guy who works in the morgue still wear his scrubs to a party? Why is there some weird ruined room in the hospital? Who the heck goes to an opera if they're on call? Billy was right to leave and take the sofa.
McGann didn't annoy me and I found him quite amiable but he wasn't as fun as other Doctors so I'll slot him between Colin Baker and Peter Davison.
Doctor Ranking 1. William Hartnell 2. Patrick Troughton 3. Jon Pertwee 4. Tom Baker 5. Colin Baker 6. Paul McGann 7. Peter Davison 8. Sylvester McCoy
Grace reminded me a lot of Peri though obviously didn't have her depth so I'll put her just below. I'll not include Lee as he was more a henchman for most of the proceedings.
Companion ranking 1. Jo 2. Steven 3. Leela 4. Ian 5. Sarah-Jane 6. Barbara 7. Romana 8. Ace 9. Ben 10. K-9 11. Liz 12. Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart 13. Peri 14. Grace 15. Vikki 16. Tegan 17. Nyssa 18. Harry 19. Zoe 20. Turlough 21. Jamie 22. Victoria 23. Adric 24. Polly 25. Mel 26. Dodo 27. Susan
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Post by scouserob on Aug 12, 2024 11:35:53 GMT
I watched this one with a big group, in a small hall of residence bedroom, back in my first year of University. So, on re-watch, I always have a cheap ground beef and pepperoni pizza to honour those days.
I have to agree, it was fun, VERY cheesy and not at all like the previous series of Doctor Who. Something I can happily re-watch every decade or so and enjoy.
In some ways it is a nice stepping stone between the old and new series with a few facets of modern Doctor Who appearing such as: The dark/gothic TARDIS. Romance between the Doctor and their companion. The overbearing, bombastic music. The focus shifting a bit from being mostly concentrating on the Doctor and the characters of the story, to his companions.
Will you be continuing on into modern Who? There are some incredible stories sprinkled in there, with the 10th Doctor especially having a mixture of the terrible and fantastic.
Both me and my eldest have rated every story out of 5 (including pre-Celestial Toymaker animations) and these were the average results by Doctor: 2nd: 4.19 5th: 3.93 4th: 3.83 3rd: 3.78 7th: 3.54 6th: 3.36 1st: 3.29 12th: 3.10 11th: 3.04 8th: 3.00 10th/14th: 2.77 9th: 2.15 13th: 2.12 15th: 1.75
Despite his stories ranking second, I would rank Davison much lower down amongst my favourite Doctors, below the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th for sure. (I found him a little cold and nasty towards Tegan and Nyssa. Though he was nice to Adric and Turlough despite their loyalty issues.)
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 12, 2024 12:17:10 GMT
My understanding is the cheesiness about Doctor Who: The Movie was an attempt to pander to the US market in the hope it would be picked up there and become a US show. I dread to think what US writers and actors would have done with it; I imagine that had audience figures been good and the scenario unravelled, rather than a rare hit it would have failed like many shows ported. As you both say it works as entertainment but it's not something I'd show mates - or TV execs - if I wanted to show the best Doctor Who. This isn't entirely unrelated to Doctor Who being bought by Disney+, where it has a big budget for a change, on the negative side I'm not sure about some of the PC speech in the Meep episode and the Always A Twist At The End (likely a decision by the writers not an attempt to appeal to Americans). I don't see the buyout as a bad thing, you'd think writers wouldn't be at their beck-and-call and even if they were, they would still air darkly themed things. If you've seen Dot And Bubble, that had dark themes but was either impossible or difficult on a BBC budget.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 12, 2024 12:56:59 GMT
Romance between the Doctor and their companion. Yes, I was trying to think if there had ever a hint of romance before. There was that odd scene where the Third Doctor held Sarah-Jane's face but I'm not sure if that was meant to be romantic. Maybe the Fourth Doctor and Romana? Was there anything with Tegan or Peri? That's the plan. Though I think I'll retire my companion ranking as it was getting pretty unwieldy. Plus my understanding is the modern series is more fluid regarding companions than the classic series anyway. Oh dear, it seems like it's mostly downhill from now on then! Yeah, I think the strongest run of stories for me was the Pertwee era into the early Tom Baker years, but neither would be my favourite Doctor. I thought Davison's run was pretty good too even though I wasn't a huge fan of his Doctor either. Yeah. I wonder if maybe he realised Adric and Turlough needed a gentler hand to keep them on the straight and narrow. Doesn't excuse him being a jerk to Nyssa and Tegan though!
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 12, 2024 13:08:22 GMT
My understanding is the cheesiness about Doctor Who: The Movie was an attempt to pander to the US market in the hope it would be picked up there and become a US show. Yeah, I think Red Dwarf tried to do the same thing at around the same time with Series 7 - more special effects; more world-building; a younger, "hotter" Kochanski as a main character; an episode about JFK etc. It seems both attempts failed. Yeah it's interesting to imagine. As someone mentioned elsewhere here, Legends of Tomorrow is kinda like an American Dr Who (and from what little I've seen of it, it's pretty good), but it was made about 20 years after the Dr Who Movie so approaches to TV shows have obviously changed a fair bit in between. Suppose I'll give my verdict on those ones if and when I get there!
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Post by scouserob on Aug 12, 2024 14:03:58 GMT
If you've seen Dot And Bubble, that had dark themes but was either impossible or difficult on a BBC budget.
Dot and Bubble was my favourite of the most recent season. The pre-credit intro made it seem like it was going to be terrible before it slowly built into something sinister as you realised the main character's continued self-centredness and lack of empathy wasn't just intended as a comedic quirk. (I gave it 4/5)
I also liked Boom and 73 Yards (despite the fact it doesn't seem to make any sense) but did not enjoy the other five of the 15th Doctor stories so far. (3/5 each for Boom and 73 Yards, 1/5 for the other 5.) So my favourite 3 are two Doctor-lite episodes and one where circumstances mean he HAS to be physically and emotionally restrained.
I hope Ncuti's performance is dialled back in future, as he is rather good in his rare quieter moments, especially when forced to in Boom. Unfortunately most of the time everything he does is dialled up to 11, jumping, grinning, singing and dancing with joy at things like landing in the TARDIS in Wales (WALES, OOOOH, I LOVE WALES! [possibly an actual, loudly spoken, quote]), screaming in anguish, crying often. It is all a bit too much for me. There is no emotional baseline. When everything is presented as having enormous emotional impact, nothing actually does.
McCoy took a season to get used to the character before dialling back the jester to become one of my favourites, so there is hope. 🤞🏻
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 12, 2024 15:51:59 GMT
Both me and my eldest have rated every story out of 5 ... What does the eldest think about Dr Who and (hopefully not derailing the thread) sci-fi in general? I'm interested because the younger generation is one that programme-makers often target, since they are the future after all.
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Post by scouserob on Aug 12, 2024 16:05:17 GMT
What does the eldest think about Dr Who and (hopefully not derailing the thread) sci-fi in general? I'm interested because the younger generation is one that programme-makers often target, since they are the future after all. He first watched the second season of the 12th Doctor (great season) and was hooked. He was 8 at the time. After learning of the history he went back to the start and watched all we could. He is much harsher on New Who than I am (I think it skews too young for him.) but has reasonably similar likes/dislikes of old Who. He loved The Expanse which we discovered together and is enjoying the characters of the second season of TNG even if the writing isn’t yet near its peak. (After watching TOS and movies 1-6.) I failed to get him interested in B5 though. (I think he’d enjoy it.) Book-wise he’s read Dune (and watched the recent two movies) but not enjoyed it enough to move on to the further novels.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 13, 2024 16:31:29 GMT
Both me and my eldest have rated every story out of 5 ... What does the eldest think about Dr Who and (hopefully not derailing the thread) sci-fi in general? I'm interested because the younger generation is one that programme-makers often target, since they are the future after all. Technically the show is Doctor Who not Dr Who or Dr. Who (an extremely common mistake). Doctor Who's primary audience has always been kids, it isn't like say Star Trek which does have a kid folllowing and entire shows aimed at kids but has a bigger student following. I think that's where Enterprise went wrong, intead of breaking new ground they kept appealing to a secondary fanbase with un-nuanced, un-creative, action-orientated storylines (I say this as a fan).
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 13, 2024 20:01:44 GMT
I think that's where Enterprise went wrong, intead of breaking new ground they kept appealing to a secondary fanbase with un-nuanced, un-creative, action-orientated storylines (I say this as a fan). That and that theme song...
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Post by scouserob on Aug 27, 2024 8:03:51 GMT
Celestial Toymaker Bluray ReviewRating: Bit crap Bit average Really good We've finally watched The Celestial Toymaker Blu-ray, and I pretty much agree with your review. I took to the 3D animation immediately, which was a surprise, and prefer it. (Though perhaps not the animators' tendency to go overboard with spectacular twisting zooms, flights and effects. These grated, losing my immersion in the scenes. I would have preferred it if they'd kept things a bit more understated and closer to what the original shots would, likely, have been.)
The decision to make the opponents obviously non-human (at least in their current, toy, form) provided some explanation for Stephen's callousness towards them and their fates in the games, whilst also bringing a lot of humanity to Dodo and her concern for them. (As you say, it leaves a bitter taste that the fate of the Toymaker's prisoners is never addressed, and rather being liberated, they end up being annihilated.)
I did however find Cyril the Schoolboy much more sinister as a grown man in a schoolboy uniform (in the surviving last episode) than the 3D 'toy' version of the character.
There wasn't much Doctor in it as he was turned into a silent floating hand for much of the proceedings. (Holiday time for Hartnell. ⛱)
Things I liked: The Celestial Toymaker and Michael Gough's performance. A godlike being who just wants to play games of skill and chance, always giving his opponents opportunities to win, whilst simultaneously being a bad loser and tipping the scales in his own favour. (Although he doesn't actually play his own games here, just sets up the rules, chooses his champions, and watches things play out.) He didn't want to destroy the universe, he just wanted to play games with the Doctor ... forever!
The Trilogic game is basically having to perform a perfect ten piece Towers of Hanoi, but I liked the fact that there was a kind of inversed time limit imposed with the Doctor having to both perfectly solve it to stall and do so whilst taking as much time as possible to avoid completing it before Stephen and Dodo could find the Tardis. I loved the fact that if the Doctor got caught stalling too much, or otherwise cheating, then the Toymaker would just move him forward in the correct 1023 move sequence with a nifty bit of stop motion animation. A good bit of Game Theory.
The riddle at the end of the first episode. We spent a good few minutes trying to decipher it before moving on to the second episode, which was good fun despite the failure, involving the audience in the Toymaker's games. (We got chairs but no further. The calling the servants without voice part was impossible to guess at that point anyway.) Good job Stephen and Dodo didn't do the same and just moved straight on.
The deadly chair game. Now this is something I could see appearing on Squid Game, perhaps with an added flavour of musical chairs. Seeing the deadly effect of the chairs when the dolls are thrown on to them really increased the stakes, especially with the poor playing cards also in deadly danger. (Though Dodo sitting in a trapped one and then surviving deflated that a little.)
Dodo. I never really grew to like her in The Ark, The Gunfighters or The War Machines, but she was very good in this, working well with Stephen throughout the games and selling her trait of showing compassion for the toys. (Despite the fact that every time she did so was to the detriment of their own chances of escape.)
We both rated it 3 out of 5. (We also both rated the sequel, The Giggle 3 out 5.)
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 27, 2024 9:35:07 GMT
Now this is something I could see appearing on Squid Game, perhaps with an added flavour of musical chairs. Seeing the deadly effect of the chairs when the dolls are thrown on to them really increased the stakes, especially with the poor playing cards also f. (Though Dodo sitting in a trapped one and then surviving deflated that a little.) My problem with this one is there wasn't really any strategy to the game - you just sit on one and hope it's not a trap. Yet the characters agonise amongst themselves about what to do.
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Post by scouserob on Aug 27, 2024 10:41:25 GMT
My problem with this one is there wasn't really any strategy to the game - you just sit on one and hope it's not a trap. Yet the characters agonise amongst themselves about what to do. It would have been better if the traps were hinted at by the chair designs, somehow, allowing them to make informed guesses on the correct chair. (Though the Doctor somehow figured out which was the safe chair and tried to pass the information along to Stephen and Dodo.)
There were some strategies involved in winning the chair game, though they weren't explored enough for my liking. More strategy than in Hide the Thimble or in the final Ludo-like game, where the only (fair) strategic decision involved was choosing whether to go last and increase your chances of sending someone back to the start, or go first and get an extra roll (relatively) to reach the finish first. (Though that is interesting in itself. My intuition tells me that by going first and having two players Stephen and Dodo were big favourites if there was no cheating involved. I wonder what the odds were...)
Back to the chairs, the overall aim is to sit on the safe chair before your opponents. Both teams are playing for their freedom from the Toymaker (though this is only part of a larger game for Stephen and Dodo.) It soon becomes clear, not least from the six deadly sisters hinted at in the riddle, that sitting on the wrong chair will probably result in your death.
Some strategies:
Using the dolls (hopefully not more of the Toymaker's sentient toys/prisoners) to identify the deadly chairs.
Trying to hide the doll strategy, and any information about which chairs are safe from your opponents.
The nasty strategy of convincing somebody, like the jester, to sit on a chair for you if you had no dolls.
When the number of potential winning chairs reduces there is also the decision of whether to take the plunge of choosing to sit in a chair or wait for your opponents to do so. The time pressure means that if nobody takes any action then Stephen and Dodo will lose the overall game of finding the TARDIS before the Doctor completes the Trilogic game and so would become the Toymaker's eternal prisoners (but they will at least be spared death by the chair).
There was also the unexplored strategy of ensuring a win with two chairs left by taking a chair each. (There is the slight drawback of condemning you or your teammate to death. Though Dodo had survived sitting in a deadly chair once...) The playing cards would have guaranteed a win if they hadn't, rather sweetly, sat on one of the final two chairs together but instead taken one of the two final chairs each.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 27, 2024 13:39:54 GMT
Some strategies:
Using the dolls (hopefully not more of the Toymaker's sentient toys/prisoners) to identify the deadly chairs.
Trying to hide the doll strategy, and any information about which chairs are safe from your opponents.
The nasty strategy of convincing somebody, like the jester, to sit on a chair for you if you had no dolls.
When the number of potential winning chairs reduces there is also the decision of whether to take the plunge of choosing to sit in a chair or wait for your opponents to do so. The time pressure means that if nobody takes any action then Stephen and Dodo will lose the overall game of finding the TARDIS before the Doctor completes the Trilogic game and so would become the Toymaker's eternal prisoners (but they will at least be spared death by the chair).
There was also the unexplored strategy of ensuring a win with two chairs left by taking a chair each. (There is the slight drawback of condemning you or your teammate to death. Though Dodo had survived sitting in a deadly chair once...) The playing cards would have guaranteed a win if they hadn't, rather sweetly, sat on one of the final two chairs together but instead taken one of the two final chairs each. I wondered whether the weight of people's clothes would be enough. I wondered why Dodo was so comparatively fortunate sitting in the wrong chair was neither fatal nor did any lasting damage. In both instances I was applying adult logic in pointing out potential loopholes to a kids' show. For example, putting the empty closet on a chair etc.
As Kieran says there is a 'pure chance' element about this game that is slightly unattractive\unappealling. This is something that is repeated in The Giggle; I liked the mad doors at the start but the games afterwards were slightly simplistic. We may never know the different games and episode that were in mind before The Giggle was rewritten ![:|](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/plain.png) .
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Aug 30, 2024 6:36:20 GMT
“Toymaker” was written by Brian Hayles, then modified by Donald Tosh, and then further modified by Gerry Davis.
Video about it here:
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 31, 2024 10:36:09 GMT
One thing about The Giggle I didn't get was why seemingly out-of-the-blue The Toymaker has a German-esque accent, one he drops at one point as a customer remarks (not the funniest 4th-wall joke I've ever seen or heard). I wonder whether next time he will be Polish or Russian.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 4, 2024 15:02:05 GMT
Series 24 definitely ramped up the wackiness quotient. I like wacky but sadly most of the plots weren't very good. Delta and the BannermenIs this title meant to sound like 'Echo and the Bunnymen' or am I overthinking it? Anyway, this is like Doctor Who meets Hi-De-Hi with a liberal sprinkling of Heartbeat yet somehow much more terrible than that sounds. Nothing much about this works: it's not funny, the acting is terrible, the script is leaden, the plot is dull, the action is limp and no amount of Rockabilly music or blasting Devil's Galop can make scenes of people opening gates exciting. It doesn't even work as a light-hearted romp as the brutality of Ken Dodd and the tourists' deaths just kills that vibe. As for the characters, Delta is a bland space princess, I couldn't care less about her romance with Billy or the latter's decision to become an alien and I especially didn't care about Ray's unrequited feelings for him. Gavrok is an ok villain and the actor is at least actually trying, but this isn't the right story for him and those two Americans served no purpose whatsoever other than to be quite annoying - at least the bee farmer came in useful. Is there anything redeemable? Well, using the camp's intercom system to amplify the child's screams was quite clever. That's about it. Why on earth stuff like The Twin Dilemma is considered worse than this boggles my mind. I revisited this after remembering back in the day when I was a kid watching this and had mixed feelings. Amazingly, that's the way I feel today, as well. The plot was definitely deficient, with ridiculous deus ex machinas and bad guys who inexplicably chose not to shoot The Doctor or missed when at close range.
The plot was rather light if 'original'. I didn't think it was irredeemable or the single worst Doctor Who story. The eighties cheesiness has aged well enough, among other things. After your recommendation* I might watch Paradise Towers when I'm in the mood for fun nonsense (which I like - I must've watched and enjoyed most if not all John Carpenter films). You'd enjoy it in the way you'd enjoy a run-of-the-mill straight-to-DVD film.
Interestingly most online critics give this story a mixed reception. A quick Google of Delta And The Bannermen review shows up some who reckon it's terrible, some lighthearted nonsense (which is probably generous, as I've said this can be done a lot better by Irwin Allen or maybe Disney), and some who think its good, a view I wouldn't share.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Sept 4, 2024 18:59:30 GMT
. I didn't think it was irredeemable or the single worst Doctor Who story. Fair enough. Personally I'm struggling to think of a story that I like less!
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 5, 2024 16:09:31 GMT
Series 24 definitely ramped up the wackiness quotient. I like wacky but sadly most of the plots weren't very good. Paradise TowersOne of the weirdest stories so far - semi-feral tribes of 80s pop princesses vie against cannibalistic old ladies, death-dealing vacuum cleaners and caretakers who blindly follow an incredibly complex rulebook led by a odd fellow who feeds people to a robot in the basement who he makes call him 'Daddy'. Meanwhile, a well-meaning eejit goes around kicking doors down in case there are any people who need saving (why didn't the cannibals just eat him?). There's a lot of nice little details here - I love how the Kangs have evolved their own way of language based on adolescent playground chatter. Unfortunately, while the writers did a lot of hard work with the setting, the plot is pretty terrible. It consists of Mel and the Doctor blundering backwards and forth, occasionally getting captured and then escaping again. So many plot points are ludicrous too - why would the caretakers not think to check the rulebook when the Doctor tells them it says ridiculous stuff? It would have been far more believable and cleverer if the Doctor was able to use some genuine loopholes in the rules to escape rather than that nonsense. And why would Mel use the pool without checking it first? Tablecloths make for surprisingly effective weaponry. And was the Doctor's cunning plan really just pushing the Architect out the door? Speaking of the Architect, that was one bit of weirdness that didn't really work for me, he came across too silly once he takes over the Chief Caretaker's body. A lot of the performances are kinda bad but they work in the weird context of the setting - which means Bonnie Langford's odd delivery serves her well here while the Doctor comes off as quite bland by comparison. This story is kinda like the opposite of the Pertwee era - there the Doctor was an oddball surrounded by serious military types, here the Doctor seems the only sane person in an asylum. Overall, switch your brain off and enjoy the weirdness and this story is pretty ice-hot. Plus I checked another box in Keeping Up Appearances bingo. Switch your brain off about sums up Paradise Towers. Stephen Wyatt later went on to write The Greatest Show in The Galaxy, which is also rather fantastic with big plotholes, perhaps bigger than Paradise Towers, but is surely better than Paradise Towers. One apparent mistake in the detail was the prisoners rulebook was smaller and thinner than a school term diary (like the sports almanac for most sporting events in Back To The Future that is no bigger than a comic book), and yet The Doctor makes up some elaborate nonsense the guards immediately believe. In a way it seemed fair enough the guards were complete idiots but not when their rulebook could easily have been memorised. Mel seemed like an example of primary school teachings "say no to strangers", not even noticing when her captors call her delicious. An explanation for the entire thing might have been welcome, or even a reason The Doctor is mistaken for The Architect. Instead the constant fast-paced weirdness and cheesiness felt over-the-top, albeit in a good way. Possibly ironic quite a lot of work was clearly put into this, indeed the world, one-liners and characters are rather well-written at times, but the whole is barely average; where The Greatest Show In The Galaxy, which is arguably simpler, has to be Stephen Wyatt's better work.
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