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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 18, 2021 18:19:33 GMT
Reshoots were theoretically possible, but because of the cost they were strictly limited - and some directors seemed to have a much more 'That'll do' attitude than others. Season 2 includes some classic blunders that were not considered worthy of a second take. Not just the cost. They were shooting on video tape and so the tape would have to be physically edited which meant getting the tape cued in the right spot and then cutting it with a knife before gluing it back together (not helped by the fact that the cut had to be on an angle as the sound and picture on video tape were stored at different points on the tape - not next to each other like film). As cuts increased the chance the tape might snap during use you were limited to just a couple of cuts.
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Post by Peter on Feb 21, 2021 7:23:30 GMT
Reshoots were theoretically possible, but because of the cost they were strictly limited - and some directors seemed to have a much more 'That'll do' attitude than others. Season 2 includes some classic blunders that were not considered worthy of a second take. You can see the same thing on some episodes of Dad's Army. I think they had a "don't panic" attitude to fluffed lines on that show.
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Post by vastariner on Feb 22, 2021 0:13:16 GMT
Reshoots were theoretically possible, but because of the cost they were strictly limited - and some directors seemed to have a much more 'That'll do' attitude than others. Season 2 includes some classic blunders that were not considered worthy of a second take. You can see the same thing on some episodes of Dad's Army. I think they had a "don't panic" attitude to fluffed lines on that show. Also an artistic reason; Arthur Lowe was playing a bank manager pretending to be a captain, and Clive Dunn was playing a confused and confusing old man, so both times slight stumbles fit their characters.
Crossroads however was notorious for ploughing on regardless. That was a budget thing. Hence Acorn Antiques.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 22, 2021 11:05:10 GMT
I think the stumbling over words suits the Doctor's "irritable grandpa" persona quite well. Although Vicki looks at the point of giggling in a lot of scenes.
I finished Series 2 so here are my thoughts in case people are interested (spoilers ahoy):
Planet of Giants - This one was fun, a sort of Honey I Shrunk the kids only 20-odd years earlier. Seeing how they inadvertently solve a murder was a nice change of perspective. Although surely when they made Barbara big at the end, the poison in her system would also have grown?
The Dalek Invasion of Earth - You can definitely see the higher budget at work here - the sight of the Dalek emerging from the Thames is brilliant. There's a lot of ambition here with several diverging storylines and the supporting actors manage to make their characters stand out despite their brief screentime. Unfortunately, it had much the same problems as the previous Dalek story - goes on a bit and the Daleks are defeated very easily in the end. Also Susan's at her most annoying here, alternating between giggling and screaming - no wonder the Doctor ditches her at the end!
The Rescue - Brief but enjoyable story here. The twist is a bit predictable, but the writers don't drag it out so it's still reasonably effective. I was hoping there would be another twist where Barbara hadn't actually killed the nice monster, but turns out she did, the big meanie! I was a bit worried that Vicki would be a Susan 2 - another 20-something pretending to be a teenager who cries all too easily, but thankfully as the series continued, she was much more bearable.
The Romans - Bit of an odd one this. After a slow first episode, it goes completely nuts. Poor old Ian gets subjected to every unpleasant ordeal a person can be put through in Roman times, Barbara gets chased around the palace by Nero Benny Hill-style, The Doctor gets mired in a conspiracy that never really comes to anything and somehow convinces everyone he's a great bard by using the Emperor's New Clothes tactics, and Vicki is just kinda there. It ends on the oddest note of all with the Doctor laughing like a lunatic at the idea he caused the Great Fire of Rome. Still, its ridiculousness means it's never boring.
The Web Planet - Oh god, this was a slog. There's a lot of ambition here - with a planet where insect life dominated, weird landscapes and probably the best villain yet. Unfortunately, the costumes haven't aged well, the mannerisms of the insect people are annoying despite the commendable attention to detail, the plot moves at a snail's pace and that infernal siren noise is enough to make one reach for the mute button. A for effort at least I guess.
The Space Museum - A good first episode here. The museum is quite surreal and the idea of being doomed by fate is an intriguing one, even if it's explained by a lot of hand-waving. Unfortunately it's an idea that's largely wasted. The premise of colonising a planet to turn it into an unpopular museum is silly, the colonisers and rebels seem to each consist of groups of 4 people, there's some very poor supporting performances and the fact our heroes are saved from their fate because they made friends is a bit pat. The concept probably should have been saved for a better story.
The Chase - A bit early for Bradley Walsh to appear in the series despite the title. I was a bit worried when I saw this was going to be yet another long Daleks sequence, but this was actually great fun and a bit of a return to form. Similar to S1's Keys of Marinus, this is a lot of mini-stories linked together by a grander narrative, but this time the pacing is much better and most of the mini stories work well in their own right. The Marie Celeste sequence was probably my favourite. I could maybe have done without the haunted house (would the Doctor really think they've entered a literal nightmare? Has such a thing ever happened before?) and the Robot Doctor was dispatched too quickly (Ian seemed very quick to brain the real Doctor!), but for the most part, I enjoyed this a lot. It was fun seeing the Daleks meeting their match at the end rather than just getting tipped over. I also loved the farewell to Ian and Barbara at the end - strange that Susan didn't get similar treatment though!
The Time Meddler - Strong finish here. There is actually a good mystery built up here and I was genuinely intrigued to see what the monk was up to. I thought it was a great idea having another time-traveller, only this one having much more selfish and ego-centric goals. I hope this isn't the last we've seen of the Time Meddler. Vicki is also able to come into her own a bit more here, she's faded into the background a bit too much in recent stories but her banter with Steven has a lot of promise.
S2 ranking: 1. The Time Meddler 2. The Chase 3. Planet of Giants 4. The Romans 5. The Rescue 6. The Dalek Invasion of Earth 7. The Space Museum 8. The Web Planet
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Post by a moderator on Feb 23, 2021 10:03:22 GMT
The Web Planet is one of the more divisive Hartnell-era stories. Your comments are quite possibly the most balanced negative response to it I've ever seen - most naysayers don't even consider the ambition and effort that went into it, and just tear into it for its limitations. The scene where one of the Zarbi runs into the camera filming it shows how much some directors were prepared to overlook rather than go to the hassle and expense of a reshoot.
The Time Meddler did return, but the story in which he did so is missing more than half its episodes, so you won't be able to see that one. He's also turned up in tie-in media, as you're not the only person who wanted a rematch, but I doubt that you want to head into the comic strip/novel/audio rabbit hole just yet.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 23, 2021 10:57:55 GMT
The Web Planet is one of the more divisive Hartnell-era stories. Your comments are quite possibly the most balanced negative response to it I've ever seen - most naysayers don't even consider the ambition and effort that went into it, and just tear into it for its limitations. Yeah, I probably respect it more than many of the other stories. Definitely more care and attention went into it than the likes of The Space Museum for instance. But I just didn't enjoy it at all unfortunately! Ah that's a pity. Also, having now started Series 3, it seems I won't be able to see how Vicki and Steven's banter develops because it looks like her remaining stories were lost and she's been replaced by this incredibly annoying Dodo character. Think I'd rather have Susan back!
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Post by a moderator on Feb 23, 2021 13:52:26 GMT
Dodo won't be around for long. And the story in which she's at her worst is mostly missing from the archives.
Seasons 3-5 are the worst hit by missing episodes. In fact, unless Britbox has some of the animated reconstructions on it, you're going to miss the whole of season 4, including the first regeneration, and almost every companion arrival and departure until the end of season 6.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 23, 2021 14:36:19 GMT
Dodo won't be around for long. And the story in which she's at her worst is mostly missing from the archives. Well, that's a relief anyway! Yes, it has the animated reconstructions so that's good. It also has some of the "orphaned" episodes under Extras (an episode of Galaxy 4, two Crusades, one Space Pirates and one Celestial Toymaker). I haven't watched any of these as it would probably bother me more seeing part of a story than seeing none at all. I wonder why animated versions of all the missing episodes haven't been developed? I assume that the audio is lost for most of them, but surely it wouldn't be too hard to find some voice actors who can do half-decent impressions of the original cast? Perhaps there's not enough fan interest to justify the expense?
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Post by a moderator on Feb 23, 2021 16:51:50 GMT
I wonder why animated versions of all the missing episodes haven't been developed? I assume that the audio is lost for most of them, but surely it wouldn't be too hard to find some voice actors who can do half-decent impressions of the original cast? Perhaps there's not enough fan interest to justify the expense? Cost is the issue with animations. They're being worked on, but it's a gradual process. There's no missing audio, though. Even back in 1964, there were fans obsessive enough to hook tape recorders up to their TV sets and make copies of the soundtrack of episodes as they were broadcast, so the audio of every single missing episode exists, has been returned to the BBC archives, and was released on CD with narration to cover the visuals. That's one regard in which Doctor Who did a lot better than many other series that now have missing episodes.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 24, 2021 2:48:57 GMT
The first animation was 1968’s “The Invasion” (released in 2006) and for a long time it was a one-off (it was paid for by money set aside for the BBCi website, which changed direction before they could be put online and were thus used first for the DVD release of the story). Then a few years later there was a brief flurry of animations (Reign of Terror, Tenth Planet, Moonbase, Ice Warriors) before the range of classic DVD releases effectively ended. It has only been in the last four years or so that we seem to be getting 1-2 animated titled a year.
Meanwhile my watch of the series has reached 1985 (I started my marathon at the start of 2013!).
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 24, 2021 8:39:22 GMT
]Meanwhile my watch of the series has reached 1985 (I started my marathon at the start of 2013!). Any particular Doctors or stories sticking out as your favourites?
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Post by a moderator on Feb 24, 2021 10:16:43 GMT
The first animation was 1968’s “The Invasion” (released in 2006) and for a long time it was a one-off (it was paid for by money set aside for the BBCi website, which changed direction before they could be put online and were thus used first for the DVD release of the story). Then a few years later there was a brief flurry of animations (Reign of Terror, Tenth Planet, Moonbase, Ice Warriors) before the range of classic DVD releases effectively ended. It has only been in the last four years or so that we seem to be getting 1-2 animated titled a year.. Initially stories only got animations if at least half of their episodes still survived (and not always then). Now they're doing ones for which most or all of the episodes are missing, though the focus seems to be on ones with aliens. Understandable, but a little disappointing, as some of the best missing stories have no visually monstrous characters, and they're not getting a look in.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 24, 2021 19:44:31 GMT
]Meanwhile my watch of the series has reached 1985 (I started my marathon at the start of 2013!). Any particular Doctors or stories sticking out as your favourites? Davison is still my favourite Doctor even if some of his stories are quite weak. I’ve always liked the funereal tone to “Logopolis” (even if bits are quite silly - looking at you ‘drowning the TARDIS’ scene) and the acidic bite of “The Caves of Androzani”. I have a soft spot for “Nightmare of Eden” even if there are some silly accents, poor SFX, and muppet-like monsters on display. “The Krotons” is disliked by many but I find it a respectably serviceable story and think the titular monster look/sound cool. The show has distinct phases (based primarily on the Producer/Script Editor dynamic) where you can expect a similar ‘house style’ from each story, but once you get to 1980 the style, tone, and quality varies widely from story to story to the point where classics can be immediately followed by cratering failures (a result of the Producer of the time not being interested in the storytelling but the spectacle).
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 25, 2021 22:23:45 GMT
The show has distinct phases (based primarily on the Producer/Script Editor dynamic) where you can expect a similar ‘house style’ from each story, but once you get to 1980 the style, tone, and quality varies widely from story to story to the point where classics can be immediately followed by cratering failures (a result of the Producer of the time not being interested in the storytelling but the spectacle). To what extent do you think are some of the directors to blame? Did some of think they were just churning out a bit of ephemera no-one was going to watch in the future, and so couldn't be bothered to even try to do a good job? I'm thinking of the Myrka scene as a particularly spectacular example. Who could film that scene and think it was any good? Why not darken the set a bit rather than have the pantomime horse plodding about under bright lights? The contrast with Caves of Androzani is enormous.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 26, 2021 5:36:42 GMT
The show has distinct phases (based primarily on the Producer/Script Editor dynamic) where you can expect a similar ‘house style’ from each story, but once you get to 1980 the style, tone, and quality varies widely from story to story to the point where classics can be immediately followed by cratering failures (a result of the Producer of the time not being interested in the storytelling but the spectacle). To what extent do you think are some of the directors to blame? Did some of think they were just churning out a bit of ephemera no-one was going to watch in the future, and so couldn't be bothered to even try to do a good job? I'm thinking of the Myrka scene as a particularly spectacular example. Who could film that scene and think it was any good? Why not darken the set a bit rather than have the pantomime horse plodding about under bright lights? The contrast with Caves of Androzani is enormous. The story goes that DW was unable to attract the good directors so was limited to those who were new (& if they turned out to be good they quickly were moved off DW) or were serving out their contracts at the end of their careers and didn’t give a toss about their efforts.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 26, 2021 10:57:58 GMT
Additionally, different people at the BBC had different ideas of what constituted 'good' direction. Some considered the attitude 'Oh, that'll do: it doesnt matter that the actor stumbled over his lines and the set wobbled. Let's get on with the next scene' to be more professional than 'That take was usable, but it could have been better - let's give it another go' because it got the recording finished more quickly and cheaply.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 27, 2021 1:21:09 GMT
Additionally, different people at the BBC had different ideas of what constituted 'good' direction. Some considered the attitude 'Oh, that'll do: it doesnt matter that the actor stumbled over his lines and the set wobbled. Let's get on with the next scene' to be more professional than 'That take was usable, but it could have been better - let's give it another go' because it got the recording finished more quickly and cheaply. Of course, there was the additional pressure of them literally turning the lights off at 10pm even if you were in the middle of shooting a scene.
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kieran
Baron
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Post by kieran on Mar 3, 2021 11:11:14 GMT
Well, Series 3 didn't take very long to get through! No real standouts either unfortunately:
The Ark - As noted above, the abrupt disappearance of Vicki and her replacement by the annoying Dodo was a bit jarring, but I suppose I can't really hold that against this story. The early stages aren't all that interesting. While Dodo inadvertently giving more advanced people the cold is a novel story, I feel it kinda draws attention to the fact that stuff like this should happen a lot more often in a time travel scenario; making a story out of it is almost akin to making a story of the fact everyone across time and space speaks English. The Guardians aren't really all that interesting and they too easily branch into Reasonable Guardians and Unreasonable Guardians. It's also very convenient that Steven also gets sick and the Doctor is able to cure both his illness and the common cold so easily. The second half is much better - it was a great idea to go back to the same place at a later time to show the impact of the Doctor's visit. The statue turning from a symbol of hope to the thing that will will wipe out humanity was a good twist. It's a pity though the Monoids weren't portrayed better (and didn't have better costumes - the show has done much better than this in the past). They should have been more sympathetic characters considering the Guardians had essentially enslaved them, but they're essentially moustache-twirling villains who announce their evil plans to the world and have such a disposition for killing one another, one wonders how they managed to stay in control for centuries. It's also a bit weird that the Doctor doesn't seem to care that much about the Guardians enslaving the Monoids as he does when the tables are turned - a brief lecture at the end is his only acknowledgement of the hypocrisy of the Guardians.
The Gunfighters - The Doctor and his companions feel like bystanders in a bad remake of My Darling Clementine with basically no sci-fi concepts present at all. The accents are dodgy, the performances vary from bland (Wyatt Earp) to ropey (Doc Holliday). Most of the atmosphere comes from a ballad from which a few lines are belted out after every single scene. If it had just been used once or twice per episode, this might have been effective, but I was soon rolling my eyes every time it started up again - for good measure, it's also performed a couple more times in-story! The concept of the Clantons mistaking the Doctor for Doc Holliday isn't very believable. Surely it would have been pretty obvious there's been a mix-up? The Clantons as a whole are disappointing villains though Johnny Ringo does bring a bit of menace to proceedings. However he's too easily dispatched - as even Doc Holliday acknowledges. Speaking of Doc Holliday, for all I didn't like Dodo in the Ark, I thought her friendship with Holliday was probably the best thing about the story and the only element where I feel the Doctor and his companions made some impact.
The War Machines - This felt like it was building up to a good tech horror and then... it never really came to anything. The first episode was creepy, WOTAN's whirring and clicking coming across as very sinister, but I was less fond of the "scary voice" it started using later. There is a sense that this will be the Doctor's greatest challenge yet, with WOTAN able to convert everyone so easily, the seeming indestructability of the war machines and the uselessness of the army. But no, the Doctor barely breaks a sweat as he easily outfoxes WOTAN. The design of the war machines themselves was a bit underwhelming; they're basically bigger, boxier Daleks - so much so in fact I wondered if maybe there was some connection between the two as the Doctor mentioned the Daleks in front of WOTAN which maybe gave it the idea. And although I'm not Dodo's greatest fan, she deserved better than being written out off-camera. Plus, I feel that sailor guy might outdo her in the annoyance stakes. As an aside, I'd always thought the Doctor wasn't actually called "Doctor Who" but here he's referred to by that name several times.
A bit hard to do a ranking as all three stories had major flaws, but I'll rank them based on how well they explored their concept: 1. The Ark 2. The War Machines 3. The Gunfighters
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Mar 3, 2021 19:47:09 GMT
The 60s stories are replete with attempts to create the new Daleks (Mechanoids, Quarks, etc.)
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Post by Peter on Mar 5, 2021 22:12:03 GMT
If you are prepared to watch the recreations, I enjoyed The Massacre of Saint Bartholemew's Eve and The Celestial Toymaker from series 3. The first is a good historical story, the second has a Vincent Price-style character with sinister intentions.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 5, 2021 22:26:20 GMT
Personally, I found The Celestial Toymaker to be dull (and to feature Dodo at her very worst), but I have no problem with anyone who enjoys it.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Mar 7, 2021 0:19:05 GMT
Personally, I found The Celestial Toymaker to be dull (and to feature Dodo at her very worst), but I have no problem with anyone who enjoys it. It was hailed by fans as a ‘classic’ till 1984 when one episode turned up and the soundtrack became more widespread in availability. Then everyone realised it was a bit crap and boring as well to add insult to injury.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 7, 2021 21:29:10 GMT
Not quite everyone, judging by pete's recommendation.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 12, 2021 15:55:54 GMT
Somebody popped this up on Twitter yesterday in celebration of Douglas Adams, who apparently created it: (For anyone who can't see the embedded tweet, here's the direct link to it. It's the TARDIS in an art gallery bit.)
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Mar 13, 2021 6:05:01 GMT
Somebody popped this up on Twitter yesterday in celebration of Douglas Adams, who apparently created it: (For anyone who can't see the embedded tweet, here's the direct link to it. It's the TARDIS in an art gallery bit.) He co-wrote the entire story with the Producer, Graham Williams, over a weekend when the originally planned script by David Fisher wasn’t working out (hence the story, “City of Death”, is credited to an in-house BBC pseudonym ‘David Agnew’).
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 21, 2021 22:45:24 GMT
Well, Series 4 was a lot better than Series 3 thankfully.
The Tenth Planet - The Cybermen were great villains. I love their sing-song voice, the way they place emphasis in quite the wrong places really gives them an inhuman feeling. Their origin, cold dispassionate logic and their 'resistance is useless' makes me think a lot of Star Trek's Borg - I wonder if they were an influence? The General is also an entertaining villain, even if he's a bit of a "military guy who wants to nuke everything" type. How was he even able to launch Z Bombs on his own if they're so devastating? Ben actually proves to be quite a likeable and resourceful character. Unfortunately Polly and the Doctor don't have much to do. In fact, the Doctor goes for a nap for the entirety of the third episode! Bit of a poor swan-song for Hartnell. I did like how his death was done to the sound effect of the Tardis moving on - nice touch.
Power of the Daleks - By far my favourite Dalek story yet. Troughton is entertaining with his quirky riddles, funny hat, recorder playing and conversations with himself. I like that he largely ignores Polly and Ben's confusion about who he is. Even the viewer doesn't really get things explained. The Daleks are used very effectively here too, I finally get why people used to consider them scary - the "I AM YOUR SERVANT" is particularly chilling. But the best bit about this story is how it keeps you guessing, the factions are not black and white. I genuinely wasn't sure where Janley's loyalties lay for instance and her death was quite affecting. And the ending where the Dalek's thirst to generate power was used to overload them was very clever. Not too sure about the damp squib of everyone being very ungrateful though! And Polly is once again fairly pointless.
The Underwater Menace - So somewhere along the way, a new companion has been picked up: Jamie. He's kinda just there to be confused and do some heavy lifting when Ben is doing something else. Polly is also yet again fairly pointless and reduced to a damsel in distress. The Doctor is a bit more bland here, but that's maybe because he can't compete with the scenery chewing of Zaroff, an awful mad scientist cliche who likes announcing his plans at the top of his voice. There is some good set design here and the music is for some reason much better than normal - I really liked the sequence of the fish people going on strike. But overall wasn't fussed on this one - admittedly the fact that 2 episodes were just stills with an audio track didn't do it any favours.
The Moonbase - The Cybermen are back but now they talk with generic robot monotones - boooo! But this is a fine story, nothing really stands out about it bad or good. The first episode was quite creepy and it's a pity the villains were revealed quite early on. I felt the Doctor was again a bit bland here and the Cybermen were quite easily beaten in the end. Polly does something useful here in coming up with the acetone idea, even if she needs Ben to fill in the details and handle the action. Once again I'm not sure of the point of Jamie.
The Macra Terror - My favourite story yet. Troughton is back on good form and Ben gets a slightly different role than usual. Polly and Jamie are still largely pointless but at least Jamie gets to dance in one of the funniest scenes thus far. The totalitarian society has so many details - the worldbuilding in just 4 episodes is very impressive and there's great use of sound again - between the announcement noise of the Controller and the Propaganda songs. The Macras are also great villains - as South Park has taught us, it's always the Crab People behind everything! The Pilot was also an interesting character - I like that he wasn't convinced too easily, but he was reasonable. Oddly, the totalitarian apparatus seems to be intact at the end of it all, just without the Macra being in control.
Series 4 ranking: 1. The Macra Terror 2. Power of the Daleks 3. The Tenth Planet 4. The Moonbase 5. The Underwater Menace
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Post by a moderator on Mar 22, 2021 0:18:57 GMT
Power of the Daleks is one of my two favourite Troughton-era stories.
The Underwater Menace is one of my two least favourite Doctor Who stories.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 22, 2021 12:11:27 GMT
The Underwater Menace is one of my two least favourite Doctor Who stories. Interesting. Although I wasn't a fan, there were quite a few stories in previous series that I found worse. Was there anything in particular you disliked about it? I think Power of the Daleks was really excellent. I was all ready to declare it my favourite story thus far until The Macra Terror pipped it to the post - although a glance at Wikipedia reveals most fans don't really care for The Macra Terror which surprised me.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 22, 2021 13:58:46 GMT
The bit that tipped Underwater Menace over the edge for me was the scene in the last episode where the Doctor and Ben, on their way to sabotaging the reactor, knock out a technician who just happens to be in the way, and give no indication of thinking that perhaps the technician shouldn't be left to drown as a consequence of their actions.
Now, I acknowledge that it's possible that, if the video footage of the episode were ever recovered, the end of the scene might show them picking up the unconscious body and dragging it to safety on their way out. Nevertheless, the overall tone of the story leaves me with the impression that this is the kind of fictional world where it doesn't matter if the good guys harm or kill innocent bystanders. A world where there'd be no penalty for murdering the Bonekeeper in Crypt. And I find that abhorrent.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 22, 2021 19:23:12 GMT
I just found out about 5 minutes ago that Christopher Ecclestone did not flounce out of Dr Who after one series fearing he'd be 'typecast' but because his relationship with the showrunner, producer and co-producer broke down. And that the 'typecast' reason was a lie put out by the BBC. Sadly I'd believed this lie until just now.
Wikipedia says he felt he'd been overworked and that he didn't like the environment that the cast and crew worked in.
Does anyone here know the full details?
edit: apologies, this ought to have been in the Dr. 2005 onwards thread. Potential repliers, answer there if you like.
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