|
Post by a moderator on Sept 25, 2021 3:16:04 GMT
The Daleks weren't in the first draft of Day of the Daleks (which, unsurprisingly, originally had a different title), but they were added to the plot to give the season opener some more impact. They'd not appeared for so long because their creator was trying to spin them off into their own series in America. He owned the rights to them, and it has been claimed that the price of his giving permission for their use in Day was that he be commissioned to write a script for the following season.
Fan consensus (to the extent that such a thing exists) is that The Time Monster is one of the low points of the Pertwee era. Nice to see someone going in without preconceptions and enjoying it.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Sept 25, 2021 13:43:42 GMT
They'd not appeared for so long because their creator was trying to spin them off into their own series in America. He owned the rights to them, and it has been claimed that the price of his giving permission for their use in Day was that he be commissioned to write a script for the following season. Interesting - I had just assumed the writers had run out of ideas for them! It seems like my Dr Who tastes are pretty unconventional.
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Sept 25, 2021 21:03:43 GMT
It might have been more fun to play up the ghost angle at the start (of course that would have required changing the story title as well so as not to give the game away), but I have no issues with the direction it took. This story was originally pitched without the Daleks and were added when the Producer (Barry Letts) wanted something attention grabbing for the season opener, so they' were never not going to have the Daleks in the title! But the "wet fish" king (who looks like Christoper Walken playing David Bowie), a fairly leaden pace despite being only four episodes, a half-hearted attempt at making Hepesh seem somewhat well-intentioned, nonsensical plot points (Hepesh is worried about the Federation taking the planet's resources so makes a deal with Arcturus which allows the latter to take the planet's resources) a disappointing monster and the supremely annoying Alpha Centauri mean this is the worst story in a while. The actor is David Troughton (one of Patrick Troughton's sons). Meanwhile the story was a metaphor about the UK joining the EEC (precursor to the EU). The Silurians have had a bit of a redesign, waved away by these Silurians being a different subspecies from those that appeared in Series 7 (though oddly the Doctor is confident that these will have the exact same personalities and goals as their distant cousins - and to be fair to him, they pretty much do). You'll have to wait till season 21 to see both Silurians and Sea Devils on screen together. there's a pointless speedboat chase Pertwee was into machines, hence the trike in "Day of the Daleks", the roadster Bessie etc. It'll all reach an apex in "Planet of the Spiders" Part 2! It also suffers from a leaden pace A lot of that is down to the 6-part nature of some of the stories. The next script editor (from Season 12 on) manages to get it down to only one 6-parter per season and by Season 18 (bar 2 oddities during Colin Baker's run) no story is more than 4 parts in length. Meanwhile I've almost finished the 1987 season (McCoy's first as the Doctor).
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Sept 27, 2021 13:51:50 GMT
The actor is David Troughton (one of Patrick Troughton's sons). Meanwhile the story was a metaphor about the UK joining the EEC (precursor to the EU). Maybe now there could be a follow up where Peladon has a referendum about leaving the Federation? Actually, maybe not! I like Bessie because it's pretty quirky, but the speedboat chase seemed a bit too James Bond. Even at that, the biggest issue was it made absolutely no difference story-wise. Yeah, that definitely makes an impact. Though sometimes the longer stories feel shorter than some of the short ones! You're getting through them rightly. Do you intend to go on to the McGann film and the 2000s revamp once you're done with McCoy?
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Sept 27, 2021 17:01:00 GMT
About length and pace. The War Games is one of my favourite stories at 10 episodes, the pacing doesn't drag but rather every episode is tightly written. I wish I could say the same for most Troughton episodes as they are a real mixed bag. I only wish we could have copies of The Daleks Master Plan (12 episodes of Who vs. The Daleks), however they don't have the material even for an animated version.
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Sept 27, 2021 21:44:26 GMT
You're getting through them rightly. Do you intend to go on to the McGann film and the 2000s revamp once you're done with McCoy? Finished the season this morning (I watch an episode while eating breakfast). Yes, the plan is to watch the 1996 TV movie and then go into the modern version of the series. While I have watched each modern season on broadcast, I haven't gone back to them, so this rewatch while have me seeing most of these episodes again for the first time since broadcast (in the case of Eccleston, that'll be 16 years). I've also included the unfinished "Shada" and the spin-off "K9 & Company" in my rewatch so far. No sure if I'll do the same with the modern spin-offs as I never liked Torchwood and didn't bother with the SJA and Class.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Sept 27, 2021 23:20:14 GMT
SJA is worth a go. Obviously some stories are better than others, but there is some excellent material in there. In many regards SJA is the more mature of the RTD-era spin-offs: Torchwood's 'adult' content often comes across like an adolescent trying to be edgy, but when SJA touches on serious issues, it can't fall back on the same shock tactics, and has to rely on good story-telling and characterisation.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Sept 28, 2021 19:42:38 GMT
What do fellow Whovians make of the 60s Doctor Who films with Peter Cushing playing the Doctor Doctor Who And The Daleks and Daleks Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.? The 1st film was slightly nuanced with the Doctor urging the pacifist Thals to be violent, and Peter Cushing clearly fitting the role of the Doctor. The 2nd film was more clearly aimed at kids, the plot illogical (the Daleks choose a mine shaft in Bradford or somewhere to drop a bomb in the centre of the earth 😏) but action-packed and entertaining. Non-canonical or not they were always great Doctor Who to me.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Sept 28, 2021 21:55:46 GMT
What do fellow Whovians make of the 60s Doctor Who films with Peter Cushing playing the Doctor Doctor Who And The Daleks and Daleks Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.? The 1st film was slightly nuanced with the Doctor urging the pacifist Thals to be violent, and Peter Cushing clearly fitting the role of the Doctor. The 2nd film was more clearly aimed at kids, the plot illogical (the Daleks choose a mine shaft in Bradford or somewhere to drop a bomb in the centre of the earth 😏) but action-packed and entertaining. Non-canonical or not they were always great Doctor Who to me. Never seen the first one but used to really enjoy 2150 AD though barely remember it now.
|
|
|
Post by vastariner on Sept 28, 2021 23:14:42 GMT
What do fellow Whovians make of the 60s Doctor Who films with Peter Cushing playing the Doctor Doctor Who And The Daleks and Daleks Invasion Earth 2150 A.D.? The 1st film was slightly nuanced with the Doctor urging the pacifist Thals to be violent, and Peter Cushing clearly fitting the role of the Doctor. It was on telly recently. It was startling in a number of respects, including:
-the Doctor was actually called "Doctor Who";
-he was not a Timelord, but an eccentric gentleman inventor;
-the only people in it of whom I have ever heard are Cushing and Roy Castle (who was primarily not an actor);
-it was just about a decade before Star Wars, yet its sets would have looked old-fashioned in the 1930s;
-its plot had more holes than a teabag. The nadir perhaps when one of the Thals goes missing and a bunch of them fail to find him. Despite there being a huge load of air bubbles in the swamp right beneath them;
-the requirement that the Daleks explain every bit of the plot one syllable at a time was HUGELY annoying.
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone other than a completionist.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Oct 14, 2021 12:47:19 GMT
Series 10 was mostly solid but nothing that really blew me away. The most notable element is that there's a bit more continuity between stories than previously. UNIT again aren't in it a great deal, nor is the Master this time.
The Three Doctors This was fun, but not quite as good as I was hoping. It was great to see Troughton back and his quarreling with Pertwee's Doctor was hilarious. I particularly liked how he gets on far better with the UNIT folk than Pertwee's Doctor does. It raises interesting questions about what it really means when all these incarnations are said to be the same Doctor. They look different, have different personalities, likes and talents and even their memories of previous incarnations seem imperfect (the Third Doctor has no idea what the Second Doctor's recorder is for instance - but he clearly remembered the daisy story he told Jo in The Time Monster). I liked the recorder saving the day in the end (even if I'm not convinced it really made any sense) and I also liked Omega as a villain. Unusually for Doctor Who villains, he's actually pretty reasonable and fair-minded (bar the occasional outburst) and the idea of a revered hero driven mad by his own heroic deed is a good one. A creature of pure will raises some interesting metaphysical questions for a sci-fi, but these are largely ignored, at least for now (and I suspect forever). I also thought this was the best role for Sergeant Benton thus far. On to the less successful elements - the psychic battle where Pertwee and a goblin do judo was... odd. Dr Tyler and Mr Ollis add absolutely nothing to proceedings. The Brigadier is at his most irritating here - you would think by now he would trust the Doctor! And poor William Hartnell is confined to a bubble for the whole story which is such a shame (incidentally, I had always assumed the Doctor had had multiple incranations before Hartnell, but this story shows I'm mistaken - Hartnell was the original). I don't really buy that the Time Lords couldn't help more directly and I didn't like the anti-matter monsters at all. And, even though I knew it would be the case, I couldn't help but feel disappointed Troughton wasn't sticking around rather than Pertwee.
Carnival of Monsters I had initial misgivings about this one, but I ended up quite enjoying it. The early Twilight Zone-esque scenes on the ship where time keeps repeating were fun even though they didn't really go anywhere. I liked the banter between Jo and the Doctor throughout the story, with Jo picking up on things which the Doctor indicates had already occurred to him - leaving it up to the viewer whether they actually had or not. The Drashigs were a great monster - that scream they do is genuinely creepy and I like how they were woven into the rest of the story. Vorg and his assistant were ok characters, amusing at times but their costumes were a bit much. The script also presented them as loveable rascals which somewhat downplayed how evil the miniscope is made out to be. Unfortunately, I found all the elements with the three tribunal aliens pretty tedious. They weren't particularly funny, menacing or interesting and the plan two of them had to seize power made no real sense. I hope this is the last we'll see of them.
Frontier in Space This is probably the most Star Trek-y story so far and it does a good job of world building, constructing a fairly layered cold war situation. Where it doesn't do so well is as regards plot. Trying to start a war with something as vague as the fear weapon here seems silly - I get that Earthlings would be afraid of Draconians and vice-versa, but I imagine at least some individuals might be more afraid of something else - it's a wonder the plan seems to work as well as it does. Another problem is just how repetitive it all is - the Doctor and Jo get captured and thrown in cells every five minutes. And the Doctor gets shot twice - though the first time seems to barely affect him. The segment in the prison colony on the moon is utterly pointless filler - the Master could have just collected the Doctor on Earth and nothing would have changed, and none of the characters introduced here or the whole Peace Party element end up having any relevance to the rest of the story. There's also lots of annoying niggles in the plotting - the Doctor using his oxygen tank as a jetpack is ludicrous, General Williams goes from completely unreasonable warmonger to incredibly helpful based on the testimony of a character who, from Williams' perspective, has every reason to be lying, and it seems a bit ridiculous that the Doctor and Jo are being dealt with by heads of state (and why is Earth's president so ineffectual anyway?). And to top it all off, it's another story where the day is saved by the Doctor twiddling with a wire <sigh>. In fact, the whole climax feels very rushed - it is practically "blink and you miss it". There is some good stuff though - the reveals for the Master and the Daleks were well done and I'm rather surprised I didn't see either coming. There's plenty of good banter between Jo, the Doctor and the Master, and the Orgons were well-used - I liked that the greatest fear was the Daleks. I also liked the design and characterisation of the Draconians. I thinks that's what bugs me so much about this story - so many good elements, but let down by lazy plotting.
Planet of the Daleks It's cool to see the Thals back - the back story of the Daleks has become so confusing that I had figured their Series 1 origin had been retconned out of existence, but I guess not! I thought the actors playing the Thals did well in making fairly slight characters feel reasonably well-rounded - I particularly liked Taron, the world-weary scientist thrust into a position of leadership, but all of the supporting cast do well here. Another thing that works well is that Jo and the Doctor take much more supportive roles than usual. They're still involved in the action of course, but they're also there to encourage and counsel the Tharns during their moments of doubt - it's a change of dynamic that work surprisingly well. Other than these points and some better than usual set design, there's nothing that really stands out too much about this story. The invisible aliens seems underused (and those purple furs are just silly looking) and there's a couple of mishandled action scenes. While the story just about manages to sustain excitement levels through its six episode length, the Daleks just aren't threatening enough to really make me invested apart from in one notable scene (the floating Dalek chasing them up the shaft). The story ends with Jo having to make a choice about whether the live on Skaro, but it just didn't have enough build-up to make the viewer think she'd actually say yes. Overall, decent but probably one I'll be struggling to remember in a few months.
The Green Death In Frontier in Space, I didn't expect the Master to be behind it all. This time I fully expected him to be and it turned out he wasn't! I guess I can't accuse the show of being predictable. Anyway, this was a bit of a throwback to Series 7 with an industrial espionage theme and a greater role for the UNIT characters and for the most part I found it a pretty successful one. I liked the first episode slow scene-setting being interspersed with the Doctor fleeing from every beast imaginable on Metebelis-3, quite a clever way to keep things exciting without rushing the main plot. Kudos for the blue sapphire actually becoming important later on too, even if it was a bit convenient. As was the fungus Cliff just happened to be studying turning out to be the best way to kill the maggots and cure the green death. I can forgive these plot points though just because the whole was well executed. The exploration of the mine was atmospheric, the interplay between BOSS and Stephens was good fun, the Doctor gets to play dress-up and Captain Yates and the Brigadier were both well-used. I did think it was going to go down the dreaded 'Computer cannot cope with illogic" route but luckily this turned out to be only a minor plot point and it least it was proper illogic this time rather than the example in The Daemons. I thought it was interesting that BOSS's mind control seemed to struggle when forcing people to go far beyond their moral compass - even Stephens is able to eventually break free due to this point. Less successfully, I thought this was a poor swansong for Jo. She's pretty inept throughout, her romance with Cliff is heavy-handed and rushed - they get engaged after spending a few days together when he spent half of them in a coma and the other half belittling her. I suppose the formula needs a bit of a shake-up, but I'll definitely miss her as a companion. Not sure if this is the end of UNIT's role in the show - it certainly seemed like that with them having a celebratory toast whilst the Doctor slinked off into the night. An odd aspect is Elgin disappears to be replaced by some new character called Mr James who seems to fill exactly the same function - it seems the actor for Elgin got ill so I can't really be too harsh on that though it's a pity that an important sub-plot has no real pay-off as a result.
Series 10 Ranking: 1. The Green Death 2. The Three Doctors 3. Carnival of Monsters 4. Planet of the Daleks 5. Frontier in Space
And since this seems to be the last we'll see of Jo, I have no hesitation sticking her at the top of my companion ranking. If this is indeed the last we've seen of the Brigadier, I'll probably stick him in somewhere too.
1. Jo 2. Ian 3. Barbara 4. Ben 5. Liz 6. Vikki 7. Steven 8. Victoria 9. Zoe 10. Jamie 11. Polly 12. Susan 13. Dodo
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Oct 14, 2021 15:21:37 GMT
I had always assumed the Doctor had had multiple incranations before Hartnell, but this story shows I'm mistaken - Hartnell was the original Certain other stories suggest otherwise, and few topics are more contentious in fandom. Not yet, but there's a pretty substantial retcon on its way... Regrettably, Roger Delgado died in a car accident a couple of months after Frontier was broadcast, so you've seen the last of the original Master.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Oct 14, 2021 18:36:37 GMT
Certain other stories suggest otherwise, and few topics are more contentious in fandom. Interesting! It does seem odd for the Doctor to have lasted hundreds of years in his first incarnation when his subsequent ones seem to average 3 or 4 years. Oh, how sad. He played the part with such relish too. A pity he didn't get a better final story.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Oct 14, 2021 19:32:04 GMT
Choosing to post this on the original Doctor Who series thread.. I didn't like what they did in the newer series, where saying The Doctor was the last survivor of his race. It felt quite forced and cliche, although the newer series doesn't seem to mind being cliche if it appeals to the audience. If anything, it always seemed like the Time Lords were the hyper-advanced ones, and The Doctor a rebel who scraped through with mediocre exam results.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 13, 2021 14:29:04 GMT
Well, it seems I was definitely premature in thinking I'd seen the last of UNIT! Series 11 was pretty good. In fact, I was all set to declare it the best series so far until a disappointing finale brought it down a peg. Still, probably the best since at least Series 8:
The Time Warrior This one had a fun concept - a time traveller kidnapping modern scientists and taking them back to the middle ages. I liked Linx as a villain and his relationship with Irongron, whose over-theatricality just about managed to be amusing rather than annoying. Pertwee was in good form here too, though Sarah-Jane didn't exactly wow me in her debut, especially with her assuming the Doctor is a villain based on pretty much zero evidence. Since she's probably the most famous companion of the classic era, I imagine she'll get better but I find her a bit too "plummy public schoolgirl" for my tastes. I did though like her exception to being told to make coffee - we've come a long way since Polly in Series 4! My favourite character in the episode was the hilarious Professor Rubeish - maybe he should have been the new companion. Sir Edward, his wife and Hal make pretty much no impression, even if the latter went on to be Boba Fett (at least until George Lucas replaced his voice with Temuera Morrison's that is). Plot-wise, I didn't really get why Linx was so invested in helping Irongron - the Doctor's theory that he takes a sort of sick enjoyment out of humans fighting one another didn't really seem to fit with how the character was presented. Also I don't get why he wouldn't feed his slaves if he wanted them to be efficient. Some of the action scenes were also a bit silly: I get the Doctor is a good fighter, but previously this has been shown to be due to him knowing alien martial arts techniques that his opponents don't expect - I don't really think he should have been capable of out-swordfighting Irongron and Bloodaxe together. And as for the Doctor dodging a barrage of rifle fire by slowly running from side to side... Anyway, forgiving it those silly bits, it's a fun enough story though definitely not one of the best series debuts.
Invasion of the Dinosaurs On paper this is probably the daftest storyline so far: mad scientist with the help of senior politicians and military personnel tricks the best and brightest that they're on a spaceship headed to a new Earth when in reality they're in a basement somewhere in central London. Meanwhile, using a device powered by a secret nuclear power plant, he brings back dinosoaurs to cause the area to be evacuated so he can erase all humanity outside of central London from existence and take those in the basement back to a golden age where they can create a utopia. Despite that, this story hangs together exceptionally well. The opening scenes create a nice sense of unease without dragging on too much, there's some good action scenes involving the military chasing the Doctor and while the dinosaurs look pretty ropey, they are used effectively in a few tense scenes. There's also some good speculation about pollution, greed and the greater good. The UNIT characters are used exceptionally well, Captain Yates becoming a villain was somewhat teased in The Green Death and here the writers really go for it. It manages not to feel too out-of-character though I did wonder why he was so adamant the Doctor and Sarah shouldn't be hurt given the ultimate aims of his group. I did like Benton refusing to arrest the Doctor and keeping up protocol while politely punching General Finch in the face, and it was nice to see the Brigadier finally go against his orders if only very slightly. There's a few dubious moments, the Doctor and Sarah are way too slow in working out General Finch is a villain, it seems incredibly stupid of the villains to have put Sarah on the fake spaceship rather than just killing or imprisoning her, and I didn't really like that the Doctor not being affected by the device was waved away as due to him being a Time Lord. A better explanation might have been that because he's not from Earth, the machine could not alter his history though even that is pretty weak. I guess the writers felt it would be more dramatic to have the device activated in the end, but couldn't really think of a good way for it to be stopped once it had been. Ah well, it was still a very entertaining yarn, all in all. Also Allo Allo's Carmen Silvera can now sit alongside Peter Sallis, Helen Worth and Jeremy Bulloch in the list of semi-famous actors who appeared in Doctor Who before their most well-known role.
Death to the Daleks There's a lot (perhaps slightly too much) crammed into four episodes here. Using the Daleks as temporary allies was a nice twist though it didn't take long for them to become enemies once more. More interesting was the character of Galloway, a gruff utilitarian who will sacrifice anyone for the greater good, including ultimately himself. The character proved to be much thought-provoking that the stock traitor I expected him to be though sadly his crewmates weren't very memorable. I liked the earnest Bellal and his scenes with the Doctor trying to navigate a lethal version of The Crystal Maze. It might have been nice to see how the Daleks got on with the same puzzles (how on earth did they bypass the hopskotch challenge?). The music was also notably good in this one as were some of the shots of the planet though I thought the city was a bit bland and I couldn't really buy into the idea of it working like an organism when it was all bare stone. The title really wasn't a misnomer with the Daleks dying in a variety of ways here including most bizarrely one committing suicide over a minor setback rather than trying to right it. Also what was with the Doctor stroking Sarah-Jane's face? I know I said I wanted more warmth from Pertwee's Doctor, but this was borderline creepy. These oddities aside, a decent little story.
The Monster of Peladon Not only did this improve greatly on the previous Peladon story, it cleverly played with expectations created by that story. While Ortron seems at first just another Hepesh (albeit motivated more by keeping the lower classes down rather than resistance to the Federation) and we therefore assume he must be the one creating the Aggedor illusions, it turns out he isn't and he (almost) becomes a good guy in the end, standing with the miners against the Ice Warriors, comforting Sarah over the Doctor and then sacrificing himself to save the Queen he had previously been dominating. The Queen feels like a retread of her father at first, but her apparent weakness is not simply part of her character as with him, but due to the sexism inherent in the society which she gradually overcomes (though admittedly the damsel-in-distress routine at the end weakens this element a bit). Playing up on the more benevolent way they were portrayed in The Curse of Peladon, the Ice Warriors at first appear to be strict, but not unfair, enforcers of Federation law until it gradually becomes clear that they have more sinister motivations - I liked the subtle touch of the Ice Warriors' weapons having the same effect as the Aggedor illusions. Generally, the story portrays political nuance pretty well - is joining the Federation simply bad for the miners or could it be good for them if only their own ruling class weren't siphoning off the benefits? Is the more diplomatic approach of Gebek more likely to help them or the more aggressive approach of Ettis? Do the Federation really care at all about Peladon or just the wealth they can extract from it? None of these questions are given simple answers and it's fun seeing the Doctor and Sarah having to work with and against these factions. There's also a great villain in Eckersley, even if he was a bit too obvious to the viewer, he was very clever at convincing the other characters that he was just a civil servant trying to do his job, allowing them to get at each other while he got on with things. Throw in a much better sword fight than in The Time Warrior, some good chatter between the Doctor and Sarah, the best use of the Ice warriors so far, and clever use of Aggedor to save the day (even if sadly he died as a result) and this is a real winner. Though it has to be said Alpha Centauri remains the most annoying character in the show - let's hope this is the last we'll see of him.
Planet of the Spiders Sadly, Pertwee's swansong is a bit of a mess. The initial setup had promise and I enjoyed the scenes in the Buddhist retreat. Linking it to Captian Yates (or just Mike Yates as he is now) was an interesting idea, but the way the other characters act around him makes it seem like he was dismissed for some minor indiscretion as opposed to trying to wipe out most of Earth's population. I also liked the character of Lupton and how he was able to maintain his own will to an extent which no-one else managed. The spiders controlling people by planting on their backs was a nice idea and cleverly used later in the story with Sarah being revealed to be under control of the queen. Other likeable elements were the innocent Tommy who becomes intelligent and Barnes, who wanted to find peace at the retreat, but allowed himself to be led astray and eventually made into a killer. I also liked the link to The Green Death with the blue crystal having a much more significant importance than the Doctor first suspected. Unfortunately, a lot of it didn't work so well. There's a lot of filler for one thing: the majority of the second episode is a well-executed but very long and ultimately meaningless chase sequence; and the last episode repeats about 10 minutes of footage from the previous episode with only the odd additional piece of dialogue. How effective the spiders are as villains probably depends on the viewer's feeling about spiders in general. They would probably be quite gruesome if the viewer had a phobia but since spiders don't bother me in the slightest, I found them a bit underwhelming and felt they looked a bit silly when sitting in their council chamber. The Great One at least was pretty intimidating. There were some fairly pointless villagers introduced and then quickly forgotten about and some weak action scenes - Tommy just standing there while Lupton's friends chanted to build up enough power to kill him really didn't come across very well. The most interesting character Lupton gets pretty much side-lined in the second half. I did like the abbot turning out to be a timelord (incidentally, the explanation that it is only regenerations that allow the timelords such long life would seem to contradict the idea that Hartnell was the original incarnation of the Doctor as previously suggested), but it's a pity the depiction of him and particularly his projection Cho-je were pretty racist. What really lets the episode down though is the bungling of the Doctor's death. First he apparently dies halfway through, is mourned, then is saved by some mysterious do-hickey, only to seemingly die again. Then he appears in his Tardis, only to shortly die properly this time where he has a tearful goodbye before Cho-je informs us not to worry, it's just a regeneration. It really makes it hard to buy into the emotion of the scene. It's not quite as bad as Hartnell having a snooze mid-way through The Tenth Planet then just dying of tiredness at the end of it, but it's still a weak end to a Doctor's tenure and unfortunately brings the whole story down.
Series 11 ranking: 1. The Monster of Peladon 2. Invasion of the Dinosaurs 3. Death to the Daleks 4. The Time Warrior 5. Planet of the Spiders
So, we say goodbye to Pertwee. He definitely grew on me as his time went on. It was perhaps a mistake to make his relationship with the Brigadier so antagonistic in the earlier series, it meant the Doctor came across as irritable too often (and not like Hartnell's amusing old man irritability). Jo definitely brought out his warmer side though he didn't really get a chance to develop the same warmth with Sarah-Jane in a convincing fashion. He'll go to the bottom of my Doctor ranking so far, but I definitely enjoyed his time at the helm.
1. William Hartnell 2. Patrick Troughton 3. Jon Pertwee
All three Doctors have set a very high bar for the future. But then it's Tom Baker next and he's everyone's favourite, right? (Well, clearly not right as Alex has already said Peter Davison is his favourite).
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 13, 2021 15:51:22 GMT
Now we're on the 4th Doctor, have other Whovians seen the one-off K-9 And Company episode? The credits and tone were very eighties and rather dated, but it was original and imo would have been better than Sarah Jane Adventures (RIP Elizabeth Sladen). Slightly interestingly the pilot show was commercially successful but the series was turned down because the BBC disliked it.
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Nov 17, 2021 2:52:37 GMT
There's the old production code joke with regard to Season 11.
"The Monster of Peladon" is YYY and "Planet of the Spiders" is ZZZ!
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Nov 17, 2021 2:57:19 GMT
Not only did this improve greatly on the previous Peladon story I'm enjoying reading your reviews Kieran, especially when the go in the opposite direction of general fandom (which accuses "Monster" of being "Curse" but with 2 episodes of padding).
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Nov 17, 2021 3:04:00 GMT
Now we're on the 4th Doctor, have other Whovians seen the one-off K-9 And Company episode? The credits and tone were very eighties and rather dated, but it was original and imo would have been better than Sarah Jane Adventures (RIP Elizabeth Sladen). Slightly interestingly the pilot show was commercially successful but the series was turned down because the BBC disliked it. When JNT took over as Producer he wangled more money out of the BBC (via BBC Enterprises I think). As a result Season 18 was 2 episodes longer at 28 episodes. This expanded budget carried over the next few seasons. "K9" was recorded at the start of the 19th production block (ie. right before Davison's first story in production "Four to Doomsday") and thus counts as 2 of the 28 episodes for that block (Season 19 appears as a regular 26 episodes as a result). For Seasons 20 through 22, this extra money was spent on overseas location shoots (Amsterdam, Lanzarote, Spain respectively) instead of extra episodes.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 17, 2021 10:29:42 GMT
Not only did this improve greatly on the previous Peladon story I'm enjoying reading your reviews Kieran, especially when the go in the opposite direction of general fandom (which accuses "Monster" of being "Curse" but with 2 episodes of padding). That was certainly the opinion I was forming during the early stages too and I was all set to write a review complaining about repeating a story that wasn't very good in the first place, but as it went on I realised it had been lulling me into thinking it was a retread and then turning my expectations on their heads. I thought that was pretty clever though perhaps it was unintentional by the writers. Even putting that subversion aside, I think it's still better than "Curse" - the villains are stronger and the political situation is better presented.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Nov 17, 2021 15:11:37 GMT
Planet of the Spiders [...] There's a lot of filler for one thing: the majority of the second episode is a well-executed but very long and ultimately meaningless chase sequence; and the last episode repeats about 10 minutes of footage from the previous episode with only the odd additional piece of dialogue. The chase was put in to indulge Jon Pertwee's love of vehicles. As for the repeated material in the last part, that's because of problems they had with episode four. An extensive fight sequence planned for that episode fell through, leaving the episode underrunning, so a significant chunk of the start of the next episode was added on to bring it up to length. That left episode five underrunning, and thus material from the last part got bolted onto the end of that one to compensate. The final episode didn't have a next one to plunder for additional material, so the longer-than-usual recap was the only remaining option.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 17, 2021 16:11:48 GMT
As for the repeated material in the last part, that's because of problems they had with episode four. An extensive fight sequence planned for that episode fell through, leaving the episode underrunning, so a significant chunk of the start of the next episode was added on to bring it up to length. That left episode five underrunning, and thus material from the last part got bolted onto the end of that one to compensate. The final episode didn't have a next one to plunder for additional material, so the longer-than-usual recap was the only remaining option. Makes sense. I just thought they were trying to pad out a thin story in a more blatant way than usual!
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 18, 2021 20:41:26 GMT
All three Doctors have set a very high bar for the future. But then it's Tom Baker next and he's everyone's favourite, right? (Well, clearly not right as Alex has already said Peter Davison is his favourite). I've heard it said people often prefer the Doctor Who at the time they were growing up watching it, in my case, Sylvester McCoy. T. Baker had a lot of confidence in the role and fitted it really well, arguably better than others such as C. Eccleston (J. Whittaker? Maybe not go there!). For many it was a Golden Age of Who, with some of the most adventurous scripts as well as Sarah Jane-Smith, and yes, K-9.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 18, 2021 22:21:04 GMT
I've heard it said people often prefer the Doctor Who at the time they were growing up watching Probably something to that - I probably think of Paul McGann as the archetypal Doctor. I primarily think of Tom Baker as Puddleglum from the BBC adaptation of The Silver Chair.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 30, 2021 14:46:57 GMT
Series 12 was a mixed bag and for some reason a bit shorter than usual. The characters being separated from the Tardis for much of it made things seem a bit more dangerous than usual - not sure if this was intentional!
Robot Tom Baker really hits the ground running here, filled to the brim with quirky energy - I particularly liked the scene where he tricks Lt Sullivan into skipping rope with him before somehow tying him up. Aside from Baker, this is a decent if unremarkable story. Technocratic supremacists make for interesting villains though I felt the reveal that Professor Kettering was one of them didn't quite work - he didn't come across as naive in the earlier stages as he does later on, and if the Doctor was on to him, why on Earth didn't he say until it was (almost) too late? The robot itself was a bit too friendly-looking, though I suppose that makes sense given he was built to serve humanity. The Asimov-esque conflict between his prime directive and his orders was reasonably well done - convincing the robot that it can serve humans by killing them pushing its logic to the limit. It may come dangerously close to the annoying "computer can't cope with illogic" trope but I didn't mind it here as it was telegraphed early on that this might happen, it wasn't what defeated the robot in the end (quite the opposite, it made him much more dangerous) and it made the robot more sympathetic. And that's probably the strongest element of the story besides Baker's capering: the robot's relationship with Sarah, the only human to treat him with nothing but kindness. The final episode reminded me of King Kong with the now giant robot carrying Sarah about. It's a pity though the writers couldn't think of a cleverer way to defeat him in the end, maybe in a less fatal manner. Another somewhat disappointing element is the sub plot about Sullivan going undercover - it could have had some comedy potential but it barely plays any part in the story (bar Sarah scolding him for getting captured despite being captured herself) - it looks like Sullivan will be a companion for a bit now anyway so hopefully he gets to live up to his comedy potential in future stories. To be honest, UNIT were beyond useless in this story - they really made a horlicks out of their raid on the SRS convention and in general didn't seem to contribute anything. And believing that the USSR and China (or even the USA for that matter) would trust the UK of all countries with their nuclear codes really pushes credulity to extremes.
The Ark in Space I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here and say this is the dullest story so far. There's a completely pointless opening episode where the characters fall foul of some dull automated systems. Then they wake up some unlikeable crew members (it's an interesting juxtaposition that the villains of the previous story probably would have thought pretty highly of human society in this future - although the compartmentalising and eugenics is largely ignored in the later episodes) and the lot of them stand round talking and occasionally flicking a switch - every now and again they interact with the Wirrn/Noah but he never feels like much of a threat. The Wirrn weren't a bad concept for villains (though their design was pretty rubbish) and I liked that the humans turned out to be the initial aggressors, but Noah was a jerk even before the Wirrn took him over and trying to give him a moment of noble self sacrifice at the end didn't come off. Rogin got a better send off, but I did wonder if he would have been so keen to substitute himself for the Doctor if he knew the Doctor was semi-immortal. Baker tries to inject some energy into the thing by occasionally mugging to the camera, but doesn't really succeed, Sarah seems to have suddenly devolved into Susan, spending a lot of the time crying or screaming and Harry still doesn't quite deliver on his comic potential. I did ponder during this story (which maybe shows how bored I was by the actual plot) about how much detail the writers have worked out about the future of humanity. Where does this ark fit with the one in Series 3 for instance? Is this long after the days of the Federation? Are the Draconians still a power in the galaxy? I wonder if anyone has tried to work out a coherent timeline of all this stuff. (Since writing this review, I have since learned this is the favourite story of both Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat and is generally thought of pretty highly by fans - I can only shake my head and say to each their own but this one wasn't for me).
The Sontaran Experiment Been a while since we've had a two part story - I think the last one was Series 2's The Rescue (though perhaps there were others amongst the lost episodes). Anyway, I liked this one. A deserted Earth is an interesting setting and the premise is a good one: the idea of torture being employed in such a calm clinical manner as a scientific experiment is quite chilling. Styre's incomprehension that two of the crashed crew would struggle to protect the one who betrayed them was a good way of showing how the Sontaran mindset worked. I liked the Sarah is back to her old self after that detour into Susan territory. Even though it didn't have enough screen time to really develop, I liked her relationship with Roth and her trying to stand up to Styre. Harry is a bit less buffoonish this time too, proving himself quite capable when he needs to be. It's good that there's a bit more to the character than pratfalls and calling women "old thing" - although he does do both those things here too. The Doctor is probably the weakest link of the trio this time, he doesn't really seem to do much until the fight scene at the end - interesting that Baker's Doctor is retaining at least some of Pertwee's action man status. Not sure how well being goaded into a fight fits with the Sontarans' otherwise cold logic, but the fight scene itself was reasonably well done and it was nice to see Vural get his redemption at the end. The Sontarans are a bit too easily persuaded not to invade in the end, but I suppose it kinda works with a species so meticulous about planning ahead that they would pull out on even a flicker of doubt.
Genesis of the Daleks This story really hits the ground running with a Time Lord ambushing the Doctor and setting him the task of stopping the creation of the Daleks. I'm not too sure why the Time Lords wouldn't choose to send them to a point a year or two before they did where the Doctor could disrupt the Dalek plans at an earlier stage where tensions would be less high, but I guess they had their reasons and it certainly makes for a more exciting story. It was interesting seeing a more violent and aggressive version of the Thals, in keeping with how they spoke about their history in Series 1. The Kaleds/Daleks certainly did not seem to be philosophers, but I suppose the mixed up history could be chalked down to a mythologising of the past, perhaps some regret about the destruction of the Kaleds made the Thals present them in a better light. At any rate, the Kaleds despite their Nazi-esque get-up (not helped by one of them being played by Guy "Lt Gruber" Siner) do seem to be the slightly more reasonable of the two warring nations. It was apity the real innocents in the story, the Mutos, didn't get much exploration. Anyway, this is probably Baker's best story so far, allowing him to show much more range than previously - particularly as he struggles futilely to stop the Thals from destroying the Kaled city or when he has a rare moment of crippling doubt as to whether he should wipe out the Daleks (even if I'm screaming at the TV that he bloody well should!). Harry is once again more capable here even though he does disappear in the mid-point of the story. Sarah starts well with her befriending a Muto and a Kaled and trying to escape from the Thal city, but she gets a bit sidelined later on. The real star of the show though is Davros, one of the most horrible villains the show has produced, particularly when the Doctor tried to reason with him by comparing the Daleks to a virus but Davros turns out to quite like the idea, or in the cold way he just wipes out his entire people for daring to question him. The tension is high for the first half to two thirds of the story but it becomes a bit uneven later on - everyone seems too implausibly trusting of one another - would Davros really allow the Doctor the opportunity to overpower him? Would Gharman really trust Nyder so readily? Would the rebel Kaleds and the Doctor really assume Davros wasn't up to something? Could Davros really be surprised that the Daleks would turn on him? Why didn't the Doctor lie about the Daleks' failures? Why didn't Davros assume he had? Still, if you can forgive these implausibilities and a rather pat ending (the Doctor basically shrugging about his failure and essentially saying "ah well, maybe it's for the best"), this is top notch entertainment. One question though - where the heck are all the women? Bettan seems to be the only one on the entire planet. No wonder the Kaleds are worried about dying out!
Revenge of the Cybermen The Cybermen seem a bit more human in this story. By that I don't mean that they're in any way sympathetic, but their mannerisms and way of speaking seem a lot less robotic than previously. I don't see that as a bad thing as it helps them stand out a bit from the Daleks and it allows for some decent banter between the leader and the Doctor and Sarah. I can't remember if they could fire weapons from their heads in their last appearance, but it certainly seems an improvement on those weird screen weapons they used to use. All in all, I though this was a decent but somewhat underbaked story. It was an interesting idea having Kellman, the double-agent, turn out in fact to be a triple agent. He was certainly prepared to kill his fellow humans, but his goal was eliminating a threat to the galaxy so it's not clear whether, a bit like Galloway in Death to the Daleks, he was prepared to do some great evils to achieve some greater good, or he was just hoping to get a lot of gold as a reward - the other characters speculate that it's the latter but his saving Harry from the rockfall suggests somewhat nobler intentions. Speaking of Harry, he's in good comic form here and he shows quite a bit of bravery. It's not a great Sarah episode though, she spends a lot of time captured and/or complaining. I found the Doctor a bit irritating in this one, many of Baker's attempts at humour didn't work for me and downplayed scenes that should have been dramatic. The rest of the characters were ok, a bit too thin to really like or dislike any of them. The one crewman using his buckle to blow up a Cyberman was pretty badass. Using the Cybermats against their masters was clever and well set up, but I kinda feel they shouldn't have been so effective. And speaking of effective, if the Cybermen are so weak to gold, why are the Vogan weapons so ineffective if that's what they're firing? And if they're not firing gold, shouldn't they have been?
Ranking these is a bit difficult - first and last is easy but the three in the middle are tougher. I'll go with: 1. Genesis of the Daleks 2. Robot 3. The Sontaran Experiment 4. Revenge of the Cybermen 5. The Ark in Space
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 30, 2021 15:54:49 GMT
Is it me or is it interesting the 4th Doctor wouldn't kill the Dalek race, but the 5th Doctor would (and does) execute Davros? I don't remember what plot devices they contrived to bring this brilliant foe back after that - truthfully, he was probably too egotistical to be the best Dalek leader.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Nov 30, 2021 16:19:53 GMT
Series 12 was a mixed bag and for some reason a bit shorter than usual. Since the start of the Pertwee era, new series of Doctor Who had started in January. The BBC decided to change to an autumn start with the following series, and since that left the production team with less preparation time, what had been intended as the final story of this series was kept in reserve for the start of the next one. Some of the issues with how Harry was used probably relate to his changing function: some of the actors being considered for the Fourth Doctor were quite old, so a new companion was devised to handle the action sequences, much like Ian did in the original series. Then the producers cast Tom Baker, who could handle fight scenes perfectly well by himself, which meant that Harry was no longer required to take care of that side of things, so the writers had to find something else for him to do. The Ark in Space was a massive rewrite of a script by someone who hadn't written for the series since the Hartnell era. I wonder if that could have had some impact on her characterisation. Back then, little or none. Continuity was largely down to what the writers could remember. And when the production team did eventually start making an effort to treat the series' history as a coherent whole, they created some of the more notorious continuity errors. Nowadays there are a lot more resources available to help keep track of such things, and the showrunners come from fandom, and thus are more likely to care about the series' history. Even Chibnall's controversial changes to the fictional universe draw on elements from stories in the original run, and are a deliberate reinterpretation of the Doctor's origins rather than the sort of 'neither know nor care what's gone before' reboot that's happened with some fictional worlds. People have tried. Lance Parkin's A History of the Universe (and several revised and updated editions renamed Ahistory) do a decent job of trying to reconcile all the contradictory details (not just of the televised stories, but also licenced tie-ins in print and on audio), but the author has never tried to make out that his take is definitive. Revenge was another substantially rewritten script by someone who hadn't contributed to the series in years. An earlier draft still exists and has been published, showing it to have started a lot more like a Patrick Troughton story.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Nov 30, 2021 16:28:49 GMT
Is it me or is it interesting the 4th Doctor wouldn't kill the Dalek race, but the 5th Doctor would (and does) execute Davros? I don't remember what plot devices they contrived to bring this brilliant foe back after that - truthfully, he was probably too egotistical to be the best Dalek leader. Spoilers for post- Genesis Dalek stories: The Fourth and Fifth Doctors both tried and failed to execute Davros - the Fourth attempted to blow him up in Destiny, and the Fifth got sidetracked before he could pull the trigger in Resurrection.
Davros almost brought about his own defeat in the latter story, but a late edit included a mention of the escape pod to which he refers in Revelation.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Nov 30, 2021 18:06:30 GMT
Some of the issues with how Harry was used probably relate to his changing function: some of the actors being considered for the Fourth Doctor were quite old, so a new companion was devised to handle the action sequences, much like Ian did in the original series. Then the producers cast Tom Baker, who could handle fight scenes perfectly well by himself, which meant that Harry was no longer required to take care of that side of things, so the writers had to find something else for him to do. Ah makes sense. I am quite liking having multiple companions again, even if the characters of both are a bit all over the place at present.
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Dec 1, 2021 7:39:01 GMT
Been a while since we've had a two part story - I think the last one was Series 2's The Rescue (though perhaps there were others amongst the lost episodes). You are correct, The Rescue was the last two-parter. There won't be another till 1982 (Season 19). This is a result of Script Editor Robert Holmes experimenting with trying to avoid multiple 6-parters in a season. This story and The Ark in Space were shot as one block (same director etc.) with the usual allocation of location and studio work. The difference here was the production team split all the location allocation into one story and all the studio time into the other. This split wouldn't be repeated till 1987 when the two 3-parters of the McCoy era were treated as one block, 1 story all on location and 1 story all in studio. The Ark in Space and Revenge of the Cybermen both being set on the same station was another attempt at saving money (the two stories were shot back-to-back).
|
|