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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 16:52:53 GMT
From TUFFF (in the Miscellanious subforum, June 2011)... Oakdweller has highlighted the lack of a dedicated thread for CotP here and, while Masterchief is still off battling Orcish hordes or something, I guess it falls to me to rectify this. I've decided to put it here because CotP isn't generally regarded as part of the main series (and it's not a solo gamebook, though it can be treated as two), and it's definitely not Sorcery! (even though Lothar's adventure involves a lot of spell-casting). But 'miscellaneous' fits Clash (and, I presume, so does 'miscellanious'), so for the purposed of the forum, Gundobad shall henceforth be located here. Feel free to imagine that I included the usual spiel about tucking books into bed at night here.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 16:53:44 GMT
From TUFFF... ***SPOILERS AHEAD*** As a two-player adventure I've only played Clash of the Princes twice, each time with a different person and both times in the mid-80s. (The pair of books was published as a box-set in 1986. I no longer have the box, but both books are thankfully still with me). At first I was excited at the novelty of a two-player book. It took only a little coaxing with chocolate to persuade my sister to play along with me. It was a disappointing experience. Although we tried to meet up at various points in the adventure, there was quite a lot of waiting around on my part whilst my slower-reading sister (she's younger than me) caught up. Both of our characters died pretty soon anyway. About a year later I discovered that my best friend Gary loved FF too. (Somehow that topic of conversation had never come up before). He needed no confectionery to play Clash with me and he was also a speedy reader. However, we needed to start over at least three more times before we got a decent game on the move, mainly due to both of us being hit with arbitrary instant deaths. It was easier meeting up this time, but the ways in which we could interact was disappointingly limited. The following week we got decided to forget Clasher (as we used to call it) and find more players so that we could play The Riddling Reaver. That was a far more satisfying experience, but of course another review subject entirely. I piled so much praise onto John Blanche for his sublime work on the Sorcery! books, but his illustrations for the Clash books are disappointing. Technically speaking, they're competent, but they are all missing the background details which make his art so special. Some illustrations, such as the mutant, have no background at all, just white void. So, how do the books play out when tackled as single-player adventures? The Warrior's Way Both books work reasonably well on their own in terms of gameplay, but use rather basic Forest of Doom style storytelling. I know that this was a nightmare for Andrew Chapman and Martin Allen to write, keeping the the two stories in line with one another, so it's unsurprising that not as much time and effort was put into the quality of the prose itself. Clovis is a tiny bit more interesting than the basic fearless adventurer of most FF fantasy books, having a more specific background and personal history. There is also a hint early on in the adventure that Clovis has a darker and rather troubled side. Just before he is about to venture into a dangerous ruined monastery, the text describes that you "take a swig of ale to calm your nerves" (309). This is a marked difference from past characters, who are usually imbued with nerves of steel. It would alter several books quite drastically if the character you play would have issues with booze, hard drugs, sex addiction or other vices which are too true to life to be used in an FF adventure. Two dice, a pencil, an eraser - and a bottle of scotch - are all you need for this adventure. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just reading too much into a single line. The simplicity of the storytelling is wince-inducing for some moments and even confusing for others. The book is written so snappily that many events happen so suddenly that there are times when I was convinced that I'd turned to the wrong paragraph. The exploration of the ruined monastery is a suitable case in point, where werewolves leap out with the blandest piece of prose possible: "Ahead of you are broad steps leading down, but before you reach them, you are attacked by two werewolves, which were hidden by the door when you entered". (252) Another banal moment comes when you inch around a rocky ledge and "without warning, a large chunk cracks beneath your feet" (97) Just what kind of warning were you supposed to expect? I don't mind the odd sudden death moment in a FF adventure, especially if the danger is hinted at first. I don't even mind one or two sudden deaths which are not sign posted at all. My patience is sorely tried when a book is littered with them and both of the Clash books have them in abundance. It took me ages to map both books because I kept turning in a particular direction and then croaking instantly. (I cheated every now and then as a youngster, but these days I can't cope with the feelings of guilt nor the dull ache of an undeserved victory, so I walk the line). The most annoying instant death for me was getting killed by a toppling barrel in a giant's cave. Not only does the book not hint that the barrel is precarious, but it doesn't tell you that the barrel even exists until you're already dead. As well as having too many instant deaths there are also unduly harsh moments when you can lose all of your gold and every single portion of your provisions. These penalties often happen, not because you've chosen something silly like leaving your backpack outside a tavern, but simply because you've chosen a particular route. Frustrating. A further fault of this book, which isn't so for The Warlock's Way, is that there is a need for tracing paper in order to complete the quest. This really should have been mentioned on the back of the book. (The same criticism holds for books such as Seas of Blood, where three dice are sometimes called for). There are some plus sides to the book. Despite the abrupt prose-style, there are some interesting encounters - the opportunity to use a witch's broom is a particular delight. Sadly, these are not enough to rescue the book from the pit of unsatisfying adventures. It'll just have to fester there along with the likes of Caverns of the Snow Witch and Sky Lord. The Warlock's Way Most of the criticisms that I've given for The Warrior's Way will be the same or similar for this book too. Lothar has just as many clumsy instant deaths to deal with as his brother, although there's more chance of him dying in the early stages. There's also a tough fight right at the start (if you're not travelling with Clovis) with a pair of ogres, especially as you're not permitted to cast a spell. The magic system is similar to that used in Citadel of Chaos, and as such it works well. The unusual (and possibly even unique in FF) way that you can cast spells which aren't given in the list provided in the introduction also works well. Being given a variety of options to cross a lake (water walking, jumping, flying or making the local tell you the truth about the lake's dangers) is a great example of how the magic is tailored to individual encounters, rather than being limited to a select dozen spells. Definitely one of Clash's strengths. As with The Warrior's Way, there are some encounters which are rushed, but enjoyable none-the-less. In a similar vein to Clovis and the broomstick, Lothar can commandeer a flying carpet. The carpet is first encountered serving drinks to a gathering of party guests who are watching prisoners being abused by a Djinn. If only the books had been full of such bizarre moments, I might even have forgiven the unfair instant deaths. But they weren't.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 16:54:37 GMT
From TUFFF... Excellent, spot on, reviews as ever. I really like these books for their weirdness and hints of what could have been a wonderful story and land, but as you say, they disappoint in their very hasty, spartan writing style.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:19:20 GMT
From TUFFF (a year later, August 2012)... Is it me, or is The Warlock's Way unwinnable?
... SPOILERS FOLLOW ...
You need four rings to discover the number of pits in Hell. One of the rings is held by King Peleus. Another is held by the Nightmare, and can only be retrieved if you are in possession of the Sacred Conch. But the encounter that gains you the Conch is on a different path from the one with Peleus. Have I missed something here, or is this book broken?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:19:55 GMT
From TUFFF... I wouldn't call the book broken. At least not in that regard, though it certainly has serious problems elsewhere.
While I have no idea what the authorial intent was, it's certainly possible to figure out the right answer without both of the mutually exclusive rings.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:20:25 GMT
From TUFFF... This may be true, but it rather defeats the point of being told that you must possess four discs of knowledge if you can't actually acquire them all!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:21:04 GMT
From TUFFF... There isn't any need to make fun of me in your original post, Ed. Three times no less! I don't actually remember this book being on sale, I never recall it being on shelves with the rest of the books. How many of you folks have a copy? ~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:21:40 GMT
From TUFFF... My current copy came from eBay, but my original copy was bought in WHSmiths in Maidenhead probably very shortly after it was published. I don't remember seeing any copies in the shops afterwards - certainly not once the Golden Dragon logo books started appearing.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:22:11 GMT
From TUFFF... The two Clash books were the only FF gamebooks not to go during my mid-nineties purge. I can't remember which bookshop they came from, but it may well have been WHSmiths.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:23:30 GMT
From TUFFF... My current copy came from eBay, but my original copy was bought in WHSmiths in Maidenhead probably very shortly after it was published. I don't remember seeing any copies in the shops afterwards - certainly not once the Golden Dragon logo books started appearing. While copies have turned up here in NZ on the local equivalent of eBay (TradeMe), I never saw a copy of Clash of the Princes in the wild (ie. on shop shelves). I started collecting FF in the January of 1987, not long after the COTP books were originally published. In fact I was unaware of COTP's existence till I joined online fandom roughly 5 years ago. Mind you, I had never heard of Warlock magazine either till coming online. Australian edition copies of the magazine - cover price $3.95 - did reach these shores (thanks again TradeMe!) but from the evidence so far only the Penguin issues (#1~5) made it here. I hardly ever saw Titan, OOTP, Sorcery! or the AFF books in the wild. Adventures of Goldhawk was something else I'd never heard of till coming online (copies however *did* reach these shores) but that is more likely down to the fact FF had dropped off my radar in late 1993. (328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:24:54 GMT
From TUFFF... I take it everyone's aware of its link with Seas Of Blood?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:25:19 GMT
From TUFFF... I'm not, cos I've never read it ~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:26:22 GMT
From TUFFF... I'm in a similar boat as Gallicus here, never seen most of those books on the shelves. Well Sorcery! yes, but can't remember ever seeing something like Clash of the Princes, or the Adventures of Goldhawk... I've learned of most of this stuff on the internet, too... right here most of the time. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:28:26 GMT
From TUFFF... I'm not, cos I've never read it I won't spoil it, but compare SOB para 391 with COTP Warrior's Way 227ff...
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:29:17 GMT
From TUFFF... Why have I never spotted that before?!?!?! Brilliant. The two events aren't exactly the same, but they are similar enough to place Seas of Blood and The Warlock's Way (not The Warrior's Way) in the same place at the same time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:29:55 GMT
From TUFFF... That little link is cool, but since both books were written by the same person, a little repetition of ideas is perhaps to be expected. Far more fun when similarities occur because Author B is a fan of Author A... ...cf The Forest Of Doom para 13 and Stormslayer para 316; the wording of one key sentence is almost identical!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:31:20 GMT
From TUFFF... Haha.
In the nicest way,how can you be such FF anoraks?
I just checked the Clash/Seas refs. I remember liking Seas a lot, and it restoring my faith a little after what I thought were a few dodgy entries in the series.
I have the CotP set on the to read list, and am disappointed to hear Warrior's Way may be unwinnable).
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:36:09 GMT
From TUFFF... In the nicest way,how can you be such FF anoraks? It's funny what sticks in the memory. Thanks to Beneath Nightmare Castle, I did a bit of a double-take the first time I heard Mr Tambourine Man. I have the CotP set on the to read list, and am disappointed to hear Warrior's Way may be unwinnable). Neither book is unwinnable. Both are flawed (and needlessly harsh), but they can be beaten.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:37:51 GMT
From TUFFF... The story of how I learned about CotP is one of the more interesting ones. I was browsing, back in about 2000 or 2001, in a second-hand bookshop in Newcastle Upon Tyne, through a big pile of green-spines and suddenly came upon a copy of The Warlock's Way. I had a double take, then another, then another. How could there be a Fighting Fantasy book I'd never heard of? It was like one of those weird FF dreams I've had now and again over the years. But here it was, a whole new FF book, with a green spine, lovely colour map and all, and I'd never heard of it, even though I'd been an FF fan since 1985! And, what's more, it was one of a pair (unfortunately the other member of the pair wasn't there). I bought it for about a quid. This was about the time I was getting involved with the online FF community (it may even have been a spur, I can't remember), so straight online I went and found out all about the Clash of the Princes set. Soon after I bought the companion volume on eBay at a similar price (I still to this day don't have the box from the boxed set). I've always liked CotP, even though it is not written very well, doesn't give much entertainment as a gamebook, and the world is strange and more-or-less-but-not-quite unconnected with the rest of FF. The artwork and the strange mystery of the books and their setting probably help a lot.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:40:11 GMT
From TUFFF... I take it everyone's aware of its link with Seas Of Blood? So let's compare them then (obvious spoilers ahead): The Warlock's Way:
You catch a merchant ship from Kalamdar (see the CotP map) to the Isle of Orcmoot (not marked on the map, via the kingdom of Peleus, also not marked on the map). The ship is waylaid by pirates, and the captain surrenders his passengers and cargo so that he and his crew can go on. You can either surrender to the pirates (and be sold into slavery), or use magic or some artefact to scare the pirates off or escape. One option given to you is to summon a Shade to attack the pirate captain; unfortunately this leads to several pirates firing their crossbows at you, resulting in your death. Seas of Blood:
Your pirate ship is sailing in the middle of the Inland Sea, between the isle of Enraki and the Shoals of Trysta, where you may encounter a heavy laden merchant ship travelling from the Eastern Rim to Kish. If you attack the ship (with your crew of pirates who wield scimitars and crossbows), "a hooded figure, obviously a Warlock or Magus" steps forward from among the other terrified passengers and summons a Shade to attack you. If you defeat the Shade, the other passengers on the merchant ship seize the Warlock, tie him (he is identified as male) up, and throw him into the sea to his doom. The merchant ship captain places himself and his ship at your mercy (and you are in fact fairly merciful). So the two episodes are very similar, but not the same, and it's impossible to square their geography. So they're not the same episode, meaning that this is either just Andrew Chapman reusing the same scene without thinking about it, reusing the same scene as a bit of self reference, or, perhaps, suggesting that CotP and SoB occur in the same world. I like the last option, especially since I've argued elsewhere that CotP can be fitted quite nicely into northern Khul, but of course it's quite likely Chapman never really thought too much about it, and in any case, he didn't consider the Inland Sea to be part of Khul in the first place... And, if you are reading, Andrew, have you thought about opening comments on your blog so we can comment on your posts and, perhaps, bombard you with questions about your contributions to FF?!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:41:03 GMT
From TUFFF... The problem is Gascoigne seemed to be unaware of/had forgotten/was writing Titan at the same time as COTP. It would have been easy pre-Titan to make the geography fit. Even if by just using Gundobadian names for places. As it is, to make the Inland Sea "work", it is FAR too small on Titan. Ought to be continent-sized.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jan 5, 2014 18:58:23 GMT
My current copy came from eBay, but my original copy was bought in WHSmiths in Maidenhead probably very shortly after it was published. I don't remember seeing any copies in the shops afterwards - certainly not once the Golden Dragon logo books started appearing. I've never read CotP, but it's a bit startling to read that wilf got his from that shop. I don't and have never lived near Maidenhead, but most/all of my FF books came from the WHSmiths there as my grandparents went to that town to shop and I got to pick a book whenever I happened to be visiting them. Strange forces were obviously in operation...
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 11:42:58 GMT
Clash of the backed-up TUFFF playthroughs:
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Post by stevendoig on May 20, 2019 20:15:50 GMT
Were these books ever listed inside a regular FF book? I was entirely unaware of their existence until the 21st century! I remember 'Tasks of Tantalon' being mentioned inside a couple of books (although despite having it on order from a bookshop ,it never appeared)
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 21, 2019 11:16:36 GMT
Were these books ever listed inside a regular FF book? I was entirely unaware of their existence until the 21st century! I remember 'Tasks of Tantalon' being mentioned inside a couple of books (although despite having it on order from a bookshop ,it never appeared) I have a feeling they were listed in some editions, but I couldn't swear to it without checking through my collection first. I think they had quite a short print run, probably due to the additional expense of the slipcase.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 8, 2019 14:09:26 GMT
I cannot find Clash of the Princes in my editions. I do find Sorcery!, FF the Roleplaying Game, Riddling Reaver, Titan, Out of the Pit, What is Dungeons and Dragons, Starflight Zero, Path of Peril, Helmquest, The Cretan Chronicles, Tasks of Tantalon, Maelstrom and the Dragonlance Chronicles all being advertised. Caveat: Clash of the Princes came out in 1986. Of the books originally published in 1986, I have only Trial of Champions as a first edition, [eg my Masks of Mayhem, Creature of Havoc, Robot Commando are all 88 editions.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 11, 2019 20:38:19 GMT
Having obtained the books a little while ago, this thread got me thinking of them and I've just finished playing these books with my son. We both managed to get to that demon at the end but neither of us had collected enough of the necessary clues along the way to answer the question. So sadly both of us lost our very souls. I certainly got the impression I was missing things on the way through, but if you turn left when you should have gone right, what can you do, eh? Might have another go and see if we can find the answers.
I'm not surprised these books are not much known about - I do remember one of my schoolfriends having them, but other than that do not recall seeing them in the shops or advertised.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 11, 2019 21:35:41 GMT
We both managed to get to that demon at the end That's very good going considering the ridiculous amount of arbitrary instant deaths in these books.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 12, 2019 19:17:00 GMT
We both managed to get to that demon at the end That's very good going considering the ridiculous amount of arbitrary instant deaths in these books. Between me and you I may have ignored one of those instant deaths... just one mind you... when I died for no reason by picking the wrong grille or something.
Also, playing the warrior, I got that magic Warhammer [add 2 SKILL] and do you know what I did? When using it I added 2 to my attack strength from then on.
I decided that being forced to fight a SKILL 11 opponent had to have some sort of reward.
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Post by pocketkings on Apr 25, 2020 21:48:00 GMT
From TUFFF (a year later, August 2012)... wilf said: Is it me, or is The Warlock's Way unwinnable?
... SPOILERS FOLLOW ...
You need four rings to discover the number of pits in Hell. One of the rings is held by King Peleus. Another is held by the Nightmare, and can only be retrieved if you are in possession of the Sacred Conch. But the encounter that gains you the Conch is on a different path from the one with Peleus.
Have I missed something here, or is this book broken?
-You actually just need 3 rings to win. You do have to get the third ring from Peleus. You can move past the Nightmare with a spell (spoiler: Freeze) so you don't need the Conch. The Warlock' Way is winnable, it's just hard. I felt like the authors really wanted to punish this guy.
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