9) Caverns of the Snow Witch Solution

[champskees]

This is a very tough book because of all the fighting. The tacked on bit at the end is particularly painful, and when combined with so many mandatory Skill rolls, a Skill of 12 is highly recommended for this adventure. Stamina also needs to be high to absorb damage from combat and the effects of the Death Spell. Luck should to be high too, and by using a Potion of Fortune later on, you can avoid a couple of fights (with the Hill Trolls & Werewolf) and conserve stamina. It also allows you to use some luck points against the Bird Man. This being said, a low skill character may be better off selecting a Potion of Strength to increase their chances of survival. The story is enjoyable enough, but overall one of the most linear & poorly planned books of the series (imho).

Important: Please use the table provided at the end of the solution and take note of the path colour advised for your character (green/blue/red).

- Potion selection:
        - Green or blue path: Take Potion of Fortune.
        - Red path: Take Potion of Stamina.
- Cross the crevasse.
- Test Luck.
- If fail: 
        - Test Luck.
        - If succeed: 1 Damage.
        - If fail: D6 Damage.
- Fight Sk 8 St 7 Snow Wolf.
- Fight Sk 7 St 7 Snow Wolf.
- Dig shelter.
- Lose 2 Food.
- Enter hut.
- Warm up the stew.
- Restore 3 Stamina.
- You do not wish to be encumbered by the additional weight and leave without the weapons.
- Take 1 Damage.
- You do not have a spear.
- Fight Sk 11 St 12 Yeti.
- Test Luck.
- If fail: 
        - Test Skill.
        - If fail: 
                - Test Luck.
                - If succeed: Lose 1 Skill.
                - If fail: Death.
- Go right.
- Drink the liquid.
- Restore 3 Stamina.
- Tell him you are here to join the Snow Queen’s followers.
- Change your story.
- Take Cloak.
- Enter kitchen.
- Attack them.
- Fight Sk 7 St 8 Neanderthal.
- Search through the cupboards.
- Smell rose.
- Restore 3 Stamina.
- Read the book.
- 4 Damage.
- Open it.
- Take Amulet of Courage.
- Restore 2 Skill.
- Take Runed Stick.
- Take Silver Flute.
- Leave.
- You are wearing a cloak.
- Test Luck.
- If fail:
        - Make a run for it.
        - Test Luck.
        - If fail & even: 
                - 3 Damage.
        - If fail & odd: 
                - Fight Sk 9 St 11 Ice Demon. Every round D6 roll. If 1-3: 1 Damage from freezing gas.
                - Restore 1 Luck.
- Go left.
- Help Dwarf.
- Take Sling & 3 Iron Balls.
- Attack with sword.
- Attack right image.
- Smash his prism.
- Take Genie Invisible offer.
- Enter skull mouth.
- Attack him.
- Use Sling. Use 1 Iron Ball.
- Test Skill.
- If fail:
        - Test Luck.
        - If succeed:
                - Fight Sk 10 St 10 Frost Giant.
        - If fail:
                - 2 Damage.
                - Fight Sk 10 St 10 Frost Giant. -2 to your Attack strength for this battle.
- Try on some of the rings.
- Take Gold Ring
- Restore 1 Luck.
- Take Copper Ring.
- Restore 1 Luck.
- Walk through next tunnel.
- You don’t have a War Hammer.
- Use Genie’s Invisible offer.
- Go right.
- Knock politely.
- Attack the zombie.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Zombie.
- Take Garlic, Ground Minotaur Horn & Dragon Eggs.
- Use Ground Minotaur Horn.
- Use Garlic.
- Use carved Rune Stick.
- If Skill is 10 or less:
        - Test Skill.
        - If fail: Death.
- Fight Sk 9 St 9 Sentinel.
- Opportunity to leave some items behind for Gold (optional).
- Go left.
- Pick up the orb.
- Keep holding the orb.
- Restore 3 stamina.
- Restore 1 luck.
- Roll D6.
- If 1 or 2:
        - Lose 1 Skill.
        - Lose 1 Luck.
        - 4 Damage.
- If 5 or 6: 
        - Roll D6.
        - If 5 or 6:
                - Take Elven Boots.
                - Restore 1 Luck.
- Fight Sk 8 St 8 Caveman.
- Take Star Shaped Disc.
- You are wearing an Amulet of Courage.
- Fight Sk 10 St 10 Brain Slayer.
- Look inside red pot.
- Take Square Metal Disc.
- Look in grey pot.
- Read the scroll.
- Test Skill.
- If succeed:
        - Learn ‘Gul Sang Abi Daar’.
        - Restore 1 Luck.
- If fail:
        - Lose 1 Luck.
- Leave cavern.
- Just open the door.
- If you have 3 or more provisions:
        - Lose 3 Food.
        - Restore 4 Stamina as you ate one of the portions.
- If the words Gul Sang Abi Daar mean anything to you:
        - Go left.
        - Try to take the shield.
        - Use the words ‘Gul Sang Abi Daar’.
        - Take Shield.
        - Restore 1 Skill.
        - Use Shield.
- If they mean nothing to you:
        - Go right.
        - 4 Damage.
        - Lose 1 Luck.
- Use Sling & 1 Iron Ball.
- Test Skill.
- If fail:
        - Lose 1 Luck.
        - If stamina >= 11:
                - Lose 1 Skill
                - 4 Damage.
                - Try to escape.
        - If stamina < 11:
                - Death.
- If succeed:
        - Test Luck.
        - If fail:
                - If stamina >= 11:
                        - Lose 1 Skill.
                        - 4 Damage.
                        - Try to escape.
                - If stamina < 11:
                        - Death.
- Fight Sk 8 St 9 Dwarf Zombie & Sk 9 St 9 Elf Zombie together.
- You have small metal discs. You have a Square and a Star, which means she will use a...
- Use square.
- Test Luck. If fail: 4 Damage.
- Walk on.
- Wait for owner.
- Restore 2 Stamina.
- Drink the liquid.
- Restore 1 Skill.
- Restore 4 Stamina.
- Restore 1 Luck.
- Chill with Stubb and Redswift.
- Restore 4 Stamina.
- Ignore him.
- Test Luck. If fail: 2 Damage.
- Green path: Use Potion of Fortune here.
- Fight Sk 12 St 8 Birdman. Green or blue path: Use luck twice if luck > 6.
- Resist temptation.
- 1 Damage.
- Use Morri’s water bottle.
- Restore 1 Stamina.
- Blue path: Use Potion of Fortune here.
- Test Luck.
- If fail: 
        - Fight Sk 8 St 10 Werewolf.
- Fight Sk 9 St 10 Hill Troll & Sk 9 St 9 Hill Troll together.
- Test Luck.
- If fail: 
        - Fight Sk 8 St 9 Hill Troll & Sk 9 St 9 Hill Troll together.
        - Take Sword.
        - Restore 1 Skill.
- You drank the Dark Elf’s potion.
- Lose 1 Skill.
- 1 Damage.
- Continue east.
- 1 Damage.
- Pull vine.
- Restore 1 Luck.
- Go up footpath.
- Enter the hut.
- Ask if he is the healer.
- Threaten the scumbag.
- Swallow the pills.
- Restore 4 Stamina.
- Keep walking up the river valley.
- Ask if he knows where the healer lives.
- 1 Damage.
- Test Luck.
- If fail: 
        - Test Luck.
        - If succeed: 1 Damage.
        - If fail: Death.
- 1 Damage.
- Test Ash’s Skill (Skill 9).
- If fail: 
        - Fight Sk 4 St 5 Death Hawk for two rounds.
- Climb ladder to tree-house.
- Fight Sk 8 St 6 Man Orc.
- Take Candle & Tinder Box.
- If you are not wearing Elven Boots:
        - Fight Sk 9 St 8 Barbarian.
        - Take Copper Armband of Strength
        - Take Silver Arrowheads.
        - Restore 1 Skill.
- Enter the cave.
- D6 Damage.
- You have a Candle & Tinder Box.
- Test Skill.
        - If fail: Death.
- You possess a Dragons Egg.
- You have drunk the concoction.
- Test Skill.
- If fail:
        - Fight Sk 12 St 12 Banshee. Skill Test each round. If fail: Automatically lose that combat round.
- You possess a silver object (flute or arrowheads).
- You believe the bird is a Phoenix.
- You are cured of the Death Spell.
- Hopefully you took some Gold Pieces from the Snow Witches lair...otherwise you probably should have just returned after killing the Yeti. Thanks Ian.

[champskees]

The Warlock Magazine version of the Book is pretty much the first half of the book. Note that there is no choice of Potion at the beginning of the book, and that you start with 5 Provisions. 11+ Skill is still recommended, but you do not require high luck or stamina in order to succeed. As the magazine adventure is shorter, I have amended the above solution as a few parts are worth skipping over.

- Cross the crevasse.
- Test Luck. Fail = Test Luck. Success = 1 Damage. Fail = D6 Damage.
- Fight Sk 8 St 7 Snow Wolf.
- Fight Sk 7 St 7 Snow Wolf.
- Dig shelter (-2 Food).
- Enter hut.
- Warm up the stew (+3 stamina).
- You do not wish to be encumbered by the additional weight and leave without the weapons.
- Take 1 Damage.
- You do not have a spear.
- Fight Sk 11 St 12 Yeti.
- Test Luck. Fail = Test Skill. Fail = Test Luck. Succeed = -1 Skill. Fail = Death.
- Go right.
- Drink the liquid (+3 stamina).
- Tell him you are here to join the Snow Queen’s followers.
- Change your story.
- Take Cloak.
- Enter kitchen.
- Attack them.
- Fight Sk 7 St 8 Neanderthal.
- Search through the cupboards.
- If you have lost any skill points:
        - Read the book (4 Damage). Open it.
        - Take Amulet of Courage (+2 Skill).
- Take Runed Stick.
- Take Magic Flute.
- Smell rose (+3 stamina).
- Leave.
- You are wearing a cloak.
- Test Luck. Fail = Make a run for it. Test Luck. Fail & Even = 3 Damage. Fail & Odd = Fight Sk 9 St 11 Ice Demon (every round D6 roll. 1-3, 1 Damage from freezing gas) (+1 Luck).
- Turn right.
- Attack with sword.
- Attack right image.
- Smash his prism.
- Take Genie Invisible offer.
- Enter skull mouth.
- Run through his lair into the tunnel opposite.
- You don’t have a War Hammer.
- Use Genie’s Invisible offer.
- Go right.
- Knock politely.
- Attack the zombie.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Zombie.
- Take Garlic & Ground Minotaur Horn.
- Use Ground Minotaur Horn.
- Use Garlic.
- Use carved Rune Stick.
- If Skill is 10 or less, Test Skill. Fail = Death.
- Fight Sk 9 St 9 Sentinel.
- The guardian of the Snow Witch’s treasure is slain and you are free to help yourself to her riches. Plus you get the 50 Gold reward for killing the Yeti.

[philsadler]

Johnbrawn I simply cannot believe how unfair Ian's books were. I mean, starting off with a skill 10 opponent? Surely even the most basic understanding of game design should be that(a) it should be fair and that (b) it should start easy and get more difficult. What I'm trying to say is, what's the point of starting with a dangerous skill 10 and then (a bit later) throwing in a couple of worthless skill 7s?

[a moderator]

There is an alternate route at the start, featuring a fight against a pair of less formidable opponents (Sk 8 & 7, or possibly 7 & 7 - Sk & St aren't listed in the usual order, so there's potential for debate over whether the columns are the wrong way round or just their headers) and a Test your Luck or two. Still, any character with a high enough Skill to have a chance against the double figure-Skilled opponents that come later is probably better off tackling the Skill 10 Mammoth and saving the Luck. Especially if, like johnbrawn1972's target character, they only have 7 Luck to start with.

[kieran]

Yes, considering Luck restores are in short supply and you get healed 3 Stamina points shortly after the mammoth fight perhaps it is better for someone with high Skill to pick the mammoth (you also miss out on potentially taking 1-6 damage from falling but there's only a 1/6 chance of that anyway). That said a few unlucky dice rolls against the mammoth could mean even a Skill 12 character will take a beating so even if it's safer on average, it is still perhaps the riskier option.

[champskees]

I ran six scenarios through the blender 100,000x ea:

1. Choose Potion of Fortune, fight wolves, use Potion of Fortune just before you fight the birdmen (and use luck against them twice).
2. Choose Potion of Stamina, fight wolves
3. Choose Potion of Fortune, fight wolves, use Potion of Fortune after you fight the birdmen.

Then I substituted the luck test and the wolf fight at the beginning with the fight against the mammoth.

Although it was often close, the mammoth path was inferior for any skill/luck/stamina combination.

[johnbrawn1972]

This is solution related so here.

At para 194 it is clearly referenced as "a silver flute" so you have an object to use if you acquire the elfin boots. If you have only 1 stamina point left and/or low luck this is better? I do not believe you discard the silver flute even though it can be used?

[champskees]

Dec 26, 2017 20:37:14 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

This is solution related so here.

At para 194 it is clearly referenced as "a silver flute" so you have an object to use if you acquire the elfin boots. If you have only 1 stamina point left and/or low luck this is better? I do not believe you discard the silver flute even though it can be used?

Can't believe I missed that. I checked all of the helmets and shields, even the sword. Thanks, will update soon.

[johnbrawn1972]

Champskees solution seems a bit peculiar with 12/14/7 when it comes to drinking the Potion of Luck. I think it is better to drink it if your skill equals twelve just before the Hill Trolls as this means you can avoid the Hill Trolls and then regain the luck point. Second this means you have 72% and 58% luck rolls where a failed second roll means game over.

If your skill is 11 then it is better to wait and take the Potion of Fortune later because you can acquire the +1 skill bonus to restore your skill to twelve. Take the Potion of Luck just before the potentially lethal roll as above.

[champskees]

May 10, 2018 21:32:47 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

Champskees solution seems a bit peculiar with 12/14/7 when it comes to drinking the Potion of Luck. I think it is better to drink it if your skill equals twelve just before the Hill Trolls as this means you can avoid the Hill Trolls and then regain the luck point. Second this means you have 72% and 58% luck rolls where a failed second roll means game over.

If your skill is 11 then it is better to wait and take the Potion of Fortune later because you can acquire the +1 skill bonus to restore your skill to twelve. Take the Potion of Luck just before the potentially lethal roll as above.

Hi John,

Not sure I understand what you are suggesting with your first point. With 12/14/7 I suggest the blue path (see notes) which advises the player to do exactly as you instruct.

By the time you get to the Hill Trolls, if you have -1 Skill you likely were killed by the birdman or at the very least severely wounded. Chance of losing a skill point for a Sk 12 character is very low anyway. My cutoff for amending a solution is >0.05% i.e. I would only likely include something if it makes a material difference, otherwise it simply clutters a solution. So while you are technically right, it doesn't provide enough upside to warrant a change. This is similar to WoFTM where you can get caught in the pirahna loop.

[johnbrawn1972]

Hi Champskees it is nice to have you around

I see what you mean about the 12 skill issue where my caution is somewhat improbable but rational.

There is a material difference as far as I can see because you are using the Potion of Fortune before the potential werewolf encounter whereas my idea is to take it after the Hill Trolls boosting your luck to 8 so you have a 72% chance of avoiding that fight and then you regain the luck point to have the best chance against the double luck roll these being 72% and 58% so this seems best to me.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have found a strange solution alteration where I think it is better to reiterate your desire to join the Snow Queen and then make a run for it later on. This seems better as far as I can tell and especially so for Champskees solution which is a very voracious system.

[spotify95]

I have this version of the book myself as well as the app. I agree that a high Skill is a necessity and that if you don't have a skill of 11 or 12 then your chances are very slim.
I'd also say that it is more recommended to take the weapons in the hut early on. It does mean an extra battle later on but you reduce the Skill 11 Yeti to Skill 10, which is more manageable.
I also always go for the Potion of Fortune.

[kieran]

Jul 12, 2019 13:59:22 GMT spotify95 said:

I'd also say that it is more recommended to take the weapons in the hut early on. It does mean an extra battle later on but you reduce the Skill 11 Yeti to Skill 10, which is more manageable.

If you take the weapons, you have a 1 in 6 chance of having to fight the yeti at full power and then you have to fight the crystal warrior. While that's unlikely, even if you do hit the yeti, you have to fight only a slightly weaker version and the crystal warrior. Don't take the weapons and you have to fight a full power yeti but no crystal warrior. So taking the weapons means fighting two tough enemies where all you're getting in exchange is the likelihood of making 1 of the 2 slightly weaker.

[dragonwarrior8]

I think somebody may have brought this up elsewhere (maybe Greenspine?) but is there anything in the rules preventing you from dropping an item? Therefore you could take the weapons, kill the Yeti, then drop the warhammer. I dont recall a book saying you can or cant do this. The more I think about it, Im not sure why you wouldnt be able to ditch anything you want. Well, maybe not a cursed item because that would defeat the point. Maybe the warhammer is cursed. (And if it is cursed it should come with a free frogurt......which is also cursed!)  Im interested to hear what others think.

[kieran]

Jul 12, 2019 15:34:12 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

I think somebody may have brought this up elsewhere (maybe Greenspine?) but is there anything in the rules preventing you from dropping an item? Therefore you could take the weapons, kill the Yeti, then drop the warhammer. I dont recall a book saying you can or cant do this. The more I think about it, Im not sure why you wouldnt be able to ditch anything you want. Well, maybe not a cursed item because that would defeat the point. Maybe the warhammer is cursed. (And if it is cursed it should come with a free frogurt......which is also cursed!)  Im interested to hear what others think.

Probably be fine for this book but I can think of others where that would cause issues. For instance in Black Vein Prophecy:

SPOILER: Click to show

You can rescue a Knight, removing the soggy scroll that was gagging him and putting it in your backpack. You are later asked if you have the soggy scroll. If so, you meet the knight again. The scroll is just a check to see if the knight was rescued or not so discarding it would mess up the continuity.

[Spotify95]

Jul 12, 2019 14:44:48 GMT kieran said:

Jul 12, 2019 13:59:22 GMT spotify95 said:

I'd also say that it is more recommended to take the weapons in the hut early on. It does mean an extra battle later on but you reduce the Skill 11 Yeti to Skill 10, which is more manageable.

If you take the weapons, you have a 1 in 6 chance of having to fight the yeti at full power and then you have to fight the crystal warrior. While that's unlikely, even if you do hit the yeti, you have to fight only a slightly weaker version and the crystal warrior. Don't take the weapons and you have to fight a full power yeti but no crystal warrior. So taking the weapons means fighting two tough enemies where all you're getting in exchange is the likelihood of making 1 of the 2 slightly weaker.

Interesting points you raise there.

Whenever I have played Caverns, I have almost always managed to get the spear to land straight (5 in 6 chance) and therefore reducing the Yeti to skill 10.

I also note someone else who played the shorter version:
youradventureendshere.blogspot.com/2017/03/caverns-of-snow-witch-attempt-1.html?m=1

They decided to avoid the hut altogether; something that I would not do due to the added +3 health from the warm stew.

Interesting that they also state that taking the war hammer results in a worse outcome overall due to the Crystal Warrior. I don't have the book with me whilst I type this (it's at home) so can anyone remember the stats for it? If its 10 or lower then I would certainly recommend lower skill users to get the war hammer and spear, since skill 11 is tough to beat. On the App version the maximum i have ever been given is skill 9 which makes it so much more difficult, I often can't get past the Yeti even at reduced skill.
A high skill person would likely get through the full strength Yeti with little problem, especially if they took the Potion of Fortune and had a high luck to begin with, as you could then use your luck a couple of times on the Yeti.

I've never thought of using luck on the Bird Men before. Would seem like the best option if you can quit after two rounds (like you can on some battles). Will have to check that out when I next read the paper version through.

I certainly agree that this is quite a tough one to successfully go through. Without high luck and 11+ skill, you stand little chance. And if you don't know the possible routes in and out, it'll take multiple attempts, as there are a couple of things you must do to progress. E.g. you must attack the kitchen worker to gain access to the rune stick used to slay the Snow Witch. You must pick up the garlic from the pantry unless your skill is 11 or 12. And you must drink the potion by the boat on the river if you don't want to succumb to the Death Spell.
But I also like how it gives you hints from time to time, i.e. the Healer's cave, if you go past it, it gives you 4 massive hints that you've gone wrong:
1. Wonder where to go next
2. Death Spell effect accelerating
3. Losing hope of finding the healer
4. Giving you the option to turn round and go back to the cave with the Phoenix

Though regarding the crystal warrior, if you don't take the weapons then you run the risk of having no defense at all if you don't get to the Genie (which is possible on one of the side routes).

I will have to analyze the thread and the book again at some point to see what else I can find out.

[johnbrawn1972]

I am not at all sure about the above because with 9/24/12 you have absolutely no chance at least in the book.

I would suggest 12/14/7 is interesting because you must use your luck to your advantage.

Also 11/24/12 is interesting because the lower skill is balanced very nicely by the judicious use of luck.

[a moderator]

Jul 12, 2019 19:54:01 GMT Spotify95 said:

Interesting that they also state that taking the war hammer results in a worse outcome overall due to the Crystal Warrior. I don't have the book with me whilst I type this (it's at home) so can anyone remember the stats for it? If its 10 or lower then I would certainly recommend lower skill users to get the war hammer and spear, since skill 11 is tough to beat. 

The Crystal Warrior has 11 Skill and 13 Stamina.

I've never thought of using luck on the Bird Men before. Would seem like the best option if you can quit after two rounds (like you can on some battles). Will have to check that out when I next read the paper version through.

There's no quit option when fighting the Bird Man.

Though regarding the crystal warrior, if you don't take the weapons then you run the risk of having no defense at all if you don't get to the Genie (which is possible on one of the side routes).

I'm not sure about that. 

SPOILER: Click to show

If you attack the Illusionist, you always end up getting the Genie (unless you get killed by the Illusionist, but that's not relevant here).

You can only avoid attacking the Illusionist if you have a magic flute, and if you do that, the Illusionist traps you in a passage from which you can only escape if you have the key. However, to get the flute, you must turn right after encountering the Mountain Elf, but you only get the key if you turn left after encountering the Mountain Elf. As you can't go in both directions, avoiding attacking the Illusionist can only lead to failure.

[spotify95]

Jul 12, 2019 20:09:17 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

I am not at all sure about the above because with 9/24/12 you have absolutely no chance at least in the book.

I would suggest 12/14/7 is interesting because you must use your luck to your advantage.

Also 11/24/12 is interesting because the lower skill is balanced very nicely by the judicious use of luck.

Indeed, with every time I've played it on the Android App the maximum skill I've been given is 9 and I don't make it even to the caves. I always take the two snow wolves and usually get past those, but fail to get past the Skill 11 Yeti.

After reading some of the other replies on here I agree that leaving without the weapons may be the better option, as a Sk10 Yeti and a Sk11 C.Warrior is worse than a single Sk11 Yeti - though if your skill is not at least 10 then you don't really stand a chance anyway.

12/14/7 is doable but a bit tough due to the low stamina (more requirement for provisions) though I would still take a Potion of Fortune as it would then increase the maximum Luck to 8. Will no doubt be tough in the later stages.

11/24/12 should be fine. Ok it's not a skill of 12 but except for the Bird Man, the max, skill of your enemies will be 11 anyways (iirc) so at worst case you'll be both on par with each other - and using luck to your advantage in some of the higher skill opponents will certainly be possible.

I can't remember exactly what route I used to pick myself but I'll try those combinations along with the planned route in the OP to see where I get. If only I had a pair of physical dice!

[spotify95]

Just found a couple of YouTube videos of someone else attempting this (the digital version):

First attempt, with initial stats of 7/19/9:



The result is, of course, unexpected and obvious with such weak stats.

Attempt #2 with 9/22/9:



Pretty much confirms what is stated in the OP, that without Skill 11 or Skill 12, you won't do so well, especially with Skill 10 and Skill 10/11 opponents as the first major battles (with possibly another skill 11 later on and an unavoidable skill 12 too).

[Akharis]

Redswift; you died too young. Why! Why! Why! ;-)

[schlendrian]

Swift read Redswift,
soon being dead
by the snowwitch's gift

making Akharis mad -
or at least slightly miffed

[johnbrawn1972]

Champskees solution should use the Potion of Fortune at "use square" on the Green Path because you regain the luck point immediately after testing your luck.

[spotify95]

Feb 3, 2021 15:24:03 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

Champskees solution should use the Potion of Fortune at "use square" on the Green Path because you regain the luck point immediately after testing your luck.

Interesting, I've now got the Android version, the Steam version, and the paperback version, so look forward to trying this out again.

That is an interesting strategy on the Green Path; I've never tried using my luck potion that early as it tends to leave you low on luck later on. Furthermore, if you don't pick up the silver arrowheads, which is possible if you are not wearing the elfin boots, and don't have anything else made of silver, then you've got a late Test your Luck whereby a failed luck roll means game over. I wouldn't really want to be on 6 luck points that late in the game when starting on 12 luck.

Having said that, I find it odd where Champskees' solution is for the green path; I'd want to use the potion of fortune immediately before testing the luck on the birdman, so as to lessen the risk of taking 2 damage from an unlucky luck roll when defending yourself from the Birdman. Though as the guide suggests, definitely use luck on the Birdman during the battle as it is a skill 12 opponent!

I also agree with what you are saying regarding the Potion of Fortune on the Blue Path: avoiding the Hill Trolls battle and then regaining the luck point when pulling on the vine is a good plan, especially if your initial luck was poor, because of the double luck roll later on.

I wouldn't be too worried about a failed luck roll and having to fight a Skill 8 Werewolf, because if your skill is high enough, you should easily be able to defeat the Werefolf in the same way that you should always pick the Snow Wolves at the start if your luck is relatively high. If your skill isn't high enough to defeat a Skill 8 opponent then you were likely either killed by the Skill 10/11 Yeti, the Skill 11 Crystal Warrior, or the Skill 12 Birdman.

I'm definitely going to go through the Steam version of this when I have the available time. Thank you.

[kieran]

Apr 21, 2021 10:02:54 GMT spotify95 said:

Furthermore, if you don't pick up the silver arrowheads, which is possible if you are not wearing the elfin boots, and don't have anything else made of silver, then you've got a late Test your Luck whereby a failed luck roll means game over.

Shouldn't you have the silver flute though?

[spotify95]

Apr 22, 2021 10:17:22 GMT kieran said:

Apr 21, 2021 10:02:54 GMT spotify95 said:

Furthermore, if you don't pick up the silver arrowheads, which is possible if you are not wearing the elfin boots, and don't have anything else made of silver, then you've got a late Test your Luck whereby a failed luck roll means game over.

Shouldn't you have the silver flute though?

Possibly, I'll have to play it all the way through on the app (or PC) to see if it accepts the silver flute.

[firebead]

I played through the FF Classic app and there are changes made to make the gamebook more winnable (while other changes, I believe, were required due to the app system limitations): here is a (I hope) complete list of all the changes.
While the reduction of some of the harder fights (and the permanent bonuses) are clearly intentional, I believe the largest part of the other changes is only due to the limitations of the game engine. Anyway, if you want to try to play a "fairer" FF 9, here it is:
13: You fight the 2 HILL TROLLs one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents.
43: The salted fish becomes 2 Provisions.
76: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value.
108: I suspect this change has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only.
143: I suspect this change is has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only.
164: With the Troll sword, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value.
171: This section has been “standardised”, I guess for accomodating the engine limitations. You can only take predetermined sums of gold: 600, 450, 300 or 150 gold pieces. If you do, you are required to remove some of your items from a ramdom list: if you take 600 gold you must remove 4 items, 3 items for 450, 2 items for 300 and only one item for 150 gold.
185: I suspect this change has to do with the limitations of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights with special rules. The special rule for the fight is removed; however, before the fight you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail, you lose 2 SKILL for this fight only.
195: The YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 8 (instead of SKILL 11 STAMINA 12).
212: Both the SNOW WOLFs have SKILL 6 STAMINA 7 (instead of the unclear scores of the books).
219: The (wounded) YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 6 (instead of SKILL 10 STAMINA 9).
223: This entire section has been extensively rewritten, partly to remove the fight special rules (due to the limits of the app engine) and partly to give relevance to the gold ring too. If you have the gold ring, you simply have to fight a WHITE DRAGON with the reduced SKILL 9 STAMINA 12. If you don’t have the gold ring, you have to take a SKILL test: if you fail it, you lose 2 STAMINA. Then you are asked if you have the copper ring (in that case you are told to go to 313); otherwise you have to fight a WHITE DRAGON with SKILL 12 STAMINA 12 (instead of SKILL 12 STAMINA 14).
253: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value.
262: You fight the DWARF ZOMBIE and the ELF ZOMBIE one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the game engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents.
285: You aren’t anymore required to give out 3 provisions; however, you have to lose 2 STAMINA.
287: Instead of a STAMINA check, there is a SKILL test.
310: The MAMMOTH has SKILL 8 STAMINA 9 (instead of SKILL 10 STAMINA 11).
296: You fight the 2 HILL TROLLs one at a time. I believe this change is due to the limits of the app engine, which apparently cannot run fights against multiple opponents.
313: This section has been semplified, I believe due to the limits of the app system. Instead of conducting a fight between your summoned warrior and the dragon, you roll a die and the result simply means you are going to fight a more or less wounded dragon: if you roll 1 the dragon has SKILL 9 STAMINA 9; if you roll 2 the dragon has SKILL 10 STAMINA 10; if you roll 3 or 4 the dragon has SKILL 11 STAMINA 11; if you roll 5 or 6 the dragon SKILL 12 STAMINA 12.
366: The salted fish becomes 2 Provisions.
372: With the Shield, you gain a permanent +1 SKILL bonus, even above your Initial value.
378: The YETI has SKILL 8 STAMINA 8 (instead of SKILL 11 STAMINA 12).
379: With the Elfin boots, you gain a permanent +1 LUCK bonus, even above your Initial value.
NOTE: At 387 you are affected by frostbite which reduce your SKILL: this SKILL loss can only be cured by the fountain at 24 (not even by a Potion of SKILL).
At 19 you are asked if you have a silver item: the app correctly considers both the arrow heads and the magic flute to be silver items.

[johnbrawn1972]

I am hard at work(well am I) on solutions for 12/14/7 and 12/24/12. I have realised the best way to realise the Potion of Luck is to take it so you reach the double luck roll with either 8 luck or 12 luck respectively.

I understand what Champskees is saying when he contends the book is linear and poorly planned but it is not so nearly as linear as say Temple, Trial or Crypt. I will give reasons. The difference in my solutions shows there is plenty of room to manoeuvre strategy wise even if it is quite linear. The different results of the skill and luck rolls plus the brutal outcome if you roll a 1 or 2 takes Caverns into territory a little bit closer to Night of the Necromancer. Caverns allows you to play the book with different strategies depending on attributes and the internal dice rolls. These factors barely exist in Temple, Trial or Crypt. This is my apologia of Caverns.

I must admit without the help of mathematics I am relying on intuition. I still think the best way is to fight the Mammoth as you have a crushing advantage and it also means you have 6 luck for the roll where you might lose 3 stamina. You then have 7 luck or 12 luck for the fight against the Crystal Warrior. I have decided to always go for the spear and war-hammer or there is little reason for your sojourn.

The amount of fighting means the cascade of stamina probabilities has been mind boggling. The assumption of 12 skill has helped somewhat. If you avoid rolling a 1 or 2 the gamebook mechanics means you should have a fairly safe journey even if you somehow acquire the Elvin Boots and manage to roll a double 6 right at the end. On the latter if you have 12/14/7 you might just have a chance if you can roll a few luck rolls to your advantage. If you have 12/24/12 you should have stamina and luck on your side.

The main problems I have tried to war game is where you roll a 1 or 2 and then you somehow manage to roll a double 6 it can open to the door to major problems. If incredibly you manage to roll another double 6 I would suggest going for a nice lie down and some lottery tickets. There is little doubt you need to reach the Bird-Men with 12 skill with 12/14/7 and you might just make it with 11 skill with 12/24/12.

[scouserob]

Caverns of the Snow Witch Attempted Optimisation
Part 1 The Parameters

After finally completing The Caverns of the Snow Witch I was struck by just how many options are open to you on the route to victory.

Many of these options seem well balanced against each other in terms of advantages and disadvantages and my intuition alone has no chance of picking the best route through this adventure.

I’ve coded up the entire book to find out.
Everything following comes with the usual disclaimer about the possibility of errors in my code producing incorrect probabilities and thus the wrong optimal strategies.

Here are the parameters I’ll be tweaking to find the best combination:

---

Parameter 1: Provision Buffer

(With the obvious caveat of never using provision when there is a freebie around the corner.)

In Shadow of the Giants, you are best off gobbling down a Provision whenever you lose a Stamina point.
In Island of the Lizard King, waiting until you’ve lost four Stamina points seems right.

Caverns of the Snow Witch is even tougher regarding Stamina loss and surprisingly, to me, it seems an even harsher rationing regime is best.

I usually choose a value so that if you are at least that value below your Initial Stamina then you gobble provisions until you are above that value below your Initial Stamina.

---

Parameter 2: Potion Choice and Use

Potion of Fortune, Use Before Second Set of Hill Trolls
Advantages: Have the best chance of avoiding the fight against the second pair of Hill Trolls and, if you go that way, the best chance of surviving the river crossing with Ash.
Disadvantages: Missing out on using the maximum Luck for avoiding the Werewolf fight and/or using the maximum amount of Luck in the fight against the Bird-Man. Lose the extra Stamina gained by a Potion of Strength.

Potion of Fortune, Use Before the Werewolf
Advantages: Maximum chance of avoiding the Werewolf fight with one Luck point less for avoiding the fight against the second pair of Hill Trolls and, if you go that way, for surviving the river crossing with Ash.
Disadvantages: Not at the maximum chance for of avoiding the fight against the second pair of Hill Trolls and, if you go that way, of surviving the river crossing with Ash. Lose the extra Stamina gained by a Potion of Strength.

Potion of Fortune, Use Before the Bird-Man
Advantages: Maximum amount of Luck to use for the Fight against the Skill 12 Stamina 8 Bird-Man.
Disadvantages: Lower chances of avoiding the werewolf fight, avoiding the fight against the second pair of Hill Trolls and, if you go that way, of surviving the river crossing with Ash. Lose the extra Stamina gained by a Potion of Strength.

Potion of Strength
Advantages: An extra infusion of Stamina points in an adventure in which you will use many.
Disadvantages Less Luck to use in the fight against the Bird-Man and/or avoiding the Werewolf fight and/or avoiding the fight against the second pair of Hill Trolls and, if you go that way, of surviving the river crossing with Ash.

---

Parameter 3: Mammoth or Snow Wolves

Right from the off the decisions are thrown at you.

Mammoth Skill 10 Stamina 11
Advantages: Save 1-2 Luck Points and potentially 1-6 Stamina.
Disadvantages: A higher expected Stamina loss compared to the Snow Wolves fight.

Snow Wolves Skill 8 Stamina 7, Skill 7 Stamina 7, one at a time.
Advantages: A less stamina draining fight than the Mammoth.
Disadvantages: Lose 1-2 Luck points and potentially 1-6 stamina if Unlucky.

---

Parameter 4: Take or Leave the Weapons in the Hut

It is surely better to leave the weapons and avoid the Crystal Warrior fight but enough people suggest this strategy so I thought I had better make sure.

Take Weapons
Advantages: 5/6 chance of reducing the Yeti’s Skill to 10 and Stamina to 9.
Disadvantages Have to fight the Crystal Warrior Skill 11 Stamina 13.

Leave Weapons.
Advantages: Avoid the Crystal Warrior fight.
Disadvantages: Must fight a full strength Yeti Skill 11 Stamina 12.

---

Parameter 5: The Ice Cavern Strategy

5 Options here which includes the decision to get the Cloak from the Elf slave before hand.
For Strategies Just Run and Just Fight do not get the Cloak.

Just Fight the Ice Demon
Advantages: No Luck points lost.
Disadvantages: Fight the Ice Demon Skill 9 Stamina 11 whilst losing an expected 0.5 Stamina extra per Attack Round.

Just Run
Advantages: Two chances to avoid the Ice Demon fight, a Luck Test followed by a 50% chance. Only lose 1 Luck point.
Disadvantages: Lose 1 Luck Point. Lose 3 Stamina if you succeed in running away via the 50% chance. Less chances of avoiding the fight than Cloak/Run.

Cloak/Fight (Or Equivalently Just Flute)
Advantages: A chance to avoid the Ice Demon Fight via a Luck Test. Only lose 1 Luck point.
Disadvantages: Lose 1 Luck Point. Less chances of avoiding the fight than Cloak/Run.

Cloak/Flute
Advantages: Two chances to avoid the Ice Demon Fight via Luck Tests.
Disadvantages: Lose 1-2 Luck Points. Less chances of avoiding the fight than Cloak/Run.

Cloak/Run
Advantages: Three chances to avoid the Ice Demon Fight via two Luck Tests and then a 50% chance. The most likely strategy to avoid the fight.
Disadvantages: Lose 1-2 Luck Points. Lose 3 Stamina if you succeed in running away via the 50% chance.

---

Parameter 6: Attack or Run from the Frost Giant

For adventurers with any hope of completing the adventure the chance of failing the Skill Test with the Sling is low to nothing so I imagine attacking is always best here to get the extra Luck Points from the Rings.

Attack Frost Giant
Advantages: Get 1-2 extra Luck Points from the Gold and Copper Rings.
(You only gain 1 Luck point if you have to take a Luck Test.)
Disadvantages: If you fail the Skill Test you will have to Fight the Frost Giant Skill 10 Stamina 10. Potential extra 2 Stamina Points lost.

Run from Frost Giant
Advantages: Certain to avoid the Frost Giant fight.
Disadvantages: Miss out on 1-2 extra Luck Points.

---

Parameter 7: After Redswift’s Burial Go East or South

Go East (Herbalist and Ash)
Advantages: Better net Stamina change than going South. Stamina change is 0 or +1. Potentially lose no net Luck Points.
Disadvantages: If you fail both of two Luck Tests then you drown whilst crossing the river with Ash. May have to fight a Deathhawk Skill 4 for two attack rounds.

Go South (Past the Night Stalker’s Cave)
Advantages: Avoid the possibility of Instant Death from the river crossing. Avoid the potential Death Hawk fight.
Disadvantages: Lose 1 or 5 Stamina points. Lose 1 Luck Point.