kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 13, 2021 18:21:45 GMT
I even enjoyed the boss battles. I think the battle with Grool is a really good set-piece. Easily my favourite part of the whole book.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 13, 2021 18:35:14 GMT
Strangely enough, the fact LOZ reads like a board game, and is linear, is sometimes its appeal, in the same way there are days EOTD appeals to me, or ST does. I admit LOZ is wanting in its mechanics and design. I've never heard of Destiny Quest, let alone played it, but anything that's a similar concept, better still, better-executed, would appeal to me. I was a fan of the Heroquest gamebooks, and the Knightmare gamebooks. I'm a Keith Martin fan but LOZ is a flawed gamebook, just like TOD.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 13, 2021 21:48:59 GMT
I even enjoyed the boss battles. I think the battle with Grool is a really good set-piece. Easily my favourite part of the whole book. Yeah, I really like the fight against the War Dragon too.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 21, 2021 22:21:53 GMT
I note the high position of Talisman Of Death, which I suggest is at least partly due to the computer game like (in a good way) ability to restore your position after an instant death. Like Keep Of The Lich-Lord TOD has a great atmosphere, but unlike KOTL, combines it with a good difficulty level. TOD, SOTS and TCT are three of my favourite FFs for their combination of good gameplay, original and successful game mechanics, and cool world-building.
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Post by The Count on Sept 22, 2021 8:23:27 GMT
I note the high position of Talisman Of Death, which I suggest is at least partly due to the computer game like (in a good way) ability to restore your position after an instant death. Like Keep Of The Lich-Lord TOD has a great atmosphere, but unlike KOTL, combines it with a good difficulty level. TOD, SOTS and TCT are three of my favourite FFs for their combination of good gameplay, original and successful game mechanics, and cool world-building. I think its more to do with the atmospheric and almost RPG like writing, especially in the first half.
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Post by stevendoig on Sept 25, 2021 16:34:33 GMT
Agreed. Once when reading Talisman I bought into the prose so much that when the bonny lassie walks into the tavern (its been awhile, I forget the details now!) I genuinely lost myself for a second and actually thought it was happening.! Weird, but brilliant.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 25, 2021 17:29:18 GMT
Agreed. Once when reading Talisman I bought into the prose so much that when the bonny lassie walks into the tavern (its been awhile, I forget the details now!) I genuinely lost myself for a second and actually thought it was happening.! Weird, but brilliant. Not sure Cassandra would take to being called a bonny lassie. Would probably make her a tad stabby.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 25, 2021 18:24:37 GMT
I note the high position of Talisman Of Death, which I suggest is at least partly due to the computer game like (in a good way) ability to restore your position after an instant death. Like Keep Of The Lich-Lord TOD has a great atmosphere, but unlike KOTL, combines it with a good difficulty level. TOD, SOTS and TCT are three of my favourite FFs for their combination of good gameplay, original and successful game mechanics, and cool world-building. I think its more to do with the atmospheric and almost RPG like writing, especially in the first half. Possibly we like Talisman Of Death for different reasons. I liked Way Of The Tiger, but felt the writing was better than the gameplay; I felt the second half of Talisman Of Death was stronger than the first half. It felt a little like one of the better Virtual Reality gamebooks, only with dice and risks. I agree the atmosphere is right, it is dark and beautiful without the semi-sadism and excessive instant deaths which can appear in some FF * cough * Crypt * cough * Creature Of Havoc.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Oct 26, 2021 15:38:04 GMT
Jmisbest's recent topic on least favourite FF authors has driven me to some more statistical navel gazing. Based on the average placement of their books in this poll, the authors can be ranked thusly (average place of their books in brackets): 1. Keith P Phillips (5) 2. Stephen Hand (5.67) 3. Jim Bambra (12) 4. Mark Smith (12.5) 5. Steve Williams (16.67) 6. Peter Darvill-Evans (19) 7. Paul Mason (22.2) 8. Jamie Thomson (25) 9. Steve Jackson (28.55) 10. Jonathan Green (31.43) 11. Robin Waterfield (35.25) 12. Steve Jackson 2 (35.67) 13. Keith Martin (40.25) 14. Graeme Davis (45) 15. Dave Morris (50) 16. Ian Livingstone (50.5) 17. Andrew Chapman (57.8) 18. Rhianna Pratchett (61) 19. Marc Gascoigne (62) 20. Luke Sharp (65.25) 21. Martin Allen (68) 22. Charlie Higson (76) Of course, the one-book wonders throw things slightly out of whack - Dave Morris is definitely a better gamebook author than his one FF bit suggests, Jim Bambra may have been carried a bit by Stephen Hand and Keith P Phillips never got a chance to prove if lightning can strike twice (though Thyra Migurn may have been able to help him there).
Comparing it my own ranking based on average scores I gave their books: 1. Peter Darvill-Evans (8.33) 2. Stephen Hand / Keith P Phillips (8.0) 4. Steve Jackson (7.36) 5. Mark Smith / Paul Mason / Jim Bambra (7.0) 8. Jamie Thomson / Steve Williams (6.67) 10. Robin Waterfield (6.5) 11. Jonathan Green (6.29) 12. Ian Livingstone (6.19) 13. Steve Jackson 2 / Luke Sharp / Keith Martin / Dave Morris (6.0) 17. Andrew Chapman (5.33) 18. Graeme Davis / Marc Gascoigne / Martin Allen / Rhianna Pratchett (5.0) 22. Charlie Higson (2.0)
It seems I rate Peter Darvill-Evans, Steve Jackson, Ian Livingstone and Luke Sharp a fair bit higher than the consensus while I am more critical of Graeme Davis than most here. I also seem to go against the grain in preferring Paul Mason's solo efforts to his collaborations with Steve Williams.
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Post by petch on Oct 27, 2021 14:27:36 GMT
I do like a spot of statistical navel gazing too! From my own rankings list, I've worked out the average placement of each author as:
1. Mark Smith (13) 2. Stephen Hand (13.3) 3. Keith P Phillips (16) 4. Jamie Thomson (23.3) 5. Paul Mason (24.4) 6. Peter Darvill-Evans (24.7) 7. Jonathan Green (26.4) 8. Steve Williams (26.5) 9. Jim Bambra (30) 10. Keith Martin (33.4) 11. Steve Jackson UK (34.4) 12. Steve Jackson US (39) 13. Andrew Chapman (42.3) 14. Dave Morris (44) 15. Robin Waterfield (44.3) 16. Ian Livingstone (48.6) 17. Graeme Davis (49) 18. Marc Gascoigne (56) 19. Luke Sharp (56.5) 20. Rhianna Pratchett (60) 21. Martin Allen (61) 22. Charlie Higson (62)
Judging by this, the areas where I fall most outside the consensus is with Jamie Thomson and Andrew Chapman (who I rate higher than most) and Jim Bambra and Robin Waterfield (conversely, lower than most). Similarly to Kieran I also prefer Paul Mason's solo works to his collaborative efforts on the whole. I was also surprised to see Steve Jackson (UK) outside of my top 10, especially as 2 of my top 3 books are penned by him (Creature of Havoc and House of Hell)...seems he was dragged right down by the fact that Starship Traveller sits at the very bottom of my rankings list. And, despite me seemingly being more of a fan of The Gates of Death than most (insofar as that I don't hate it with a passion), Charlie Higson still props up my table of authors. Poor old Charlie.
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Post by drmanhattan on Nov 2, 2021 18:48:49 GMT
This ranking just penalizes IL and Sj for volume of output, if you’re telling me that Deathtrap Dungeon, City of Thieves, Creature of Havoc, House of Hell and Sorcery aren’t right up at the top of the list, then the rankings are pointless. So “average” rating for me is less useful than “the best of the author”. Having the originals so low would not pass the smell test.
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Post by drmanhattan on Nov 2, 2021 18:50:31 GMT
Hasn’t anyone done a per author poll yet then do a ranking competition based on 1 book per author. Sorcery would be tricky of course.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 2, 2021 23:47:54 GMT
Hasn’t anyone done a per author poll yet then do a ranking competition based on 1 book per author. Sorcery would be tricky of course. I guess you'd first have to do a set of mini-polls to establish the 'best' book per author who'd written more than one.
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Post by drmanhattan on Nov 3, 2021 6:48:48 GMT
I suppose you could just pull out of the overall book ranking list but iirc even there the best of SJ IL imo are artificially low. IL wrote some rubbish and wasn’t very original but DD to me is the absolute definition of what FF was all about. And SJ was pushing the envelope in styles and settings but Sorcery as a whole is mind blowing so it’s nonsense imo to see the books ranked both individually and so low. Nobody else has come close to the sorcery series.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 3, 2021 10:24:14 GMT
This ranking just penalizes IL and Sj for volume of output Yes, this is true unfortunately, Keith Martin and Jonathan Green get a bit hit by this too. I think looking at just the best is flawed too though. If someone was saying IL is one of the best FF authors, it seems a bit strange to dismiss that he wrote Blood of the Zombies as irrelevant to that claim. It would be akin to saying he's the worst author by only considering his worst books and ignoring his great ones. Others on the forum disagree I guess and I suppose it would have been difficult to compare Sorcery as a whole to the other books. Ranking based on highest place books: 1. Paul Mason and Steve Williams 3. Stephen Hand 4. Jonathan Green 5. Keith P Phillips 6. Steve Jackson 7. Mark Smith and Jamie Thomson 9. Ian Livingstone 10. Keith Martin 11. Jim Bambra 12. Peter Darvill-Evans 13. Robin Waterfield 14. Steve Jackson 2 15. Graeme Davis 16. Andrew Chapman 17. Dave Morris 18. Luke Sharp 19. Rhianna Pratchett 20. Marc Gascoigne 21. Martin Allen 22. Charlie Higson So Paul Mason, Jonathan Green and Ian Livingstone are the authors who significantly benefit from ranking them this way, Jim Bambra and Peter Darvill-Evans really lose out. Not sure that's much fairer - Peter Darvill-Evans has all three of his books in the top 20 but only ranks 12th? Out of interest, I also ranked the authors by their lowest placed books: 1. Keith P Phillips 2. Stephen Hand and Jim Bambra 4. Mark Smith 5. Peter Darvill-Evans 6. Steve Williams 7. Paul Mason 8. Graeme Davis 9. Steve Jackson 2 10. Dave Morris and Jamie Thomson 12. Jonathan Green 13. Robin Waterfield 14. Rhianna Pratchett 15. Marc Gascoigne 16. Keith Martin 17. Andrew Chapman 18. Steve Jackson 19. Luke Sharp 20. Martin Allen 21. Charlie Higson 22. Ian Livingstone Authors who do well out of ranking them this way are Graeme Davis and Dave Morris while Steve and Ian do very badly indeed! So if you look at Ian's best book he only ranks 9th, but if you look at his worst he ranks right at the bottom so an overall ranking of 16th seems pretty fair.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 4, 2021 11:55:24 GMT
Ranking based on highest place books: 1. Paul Mason and Steve Williams 3. Stephen Hand 4. Jonathan Green 5. Keith P Phillips 6. Steve Jackson 7. Mark Smith and Jamie Thomson 9. Ian Livingstone 10. Keith Martin 11. Jim Bambra 12. Peter Darvill-Evans 13. Robin Waterfield 14. Steve Jackson 2 15. Graeme Davis 16. Andrew Chapman 17. Dave Morris 18. Luke Sharp 19. Rhianna Pratchett 20. Marc Gascoigne 21. Martin Allen 22. Charlie Higson For obvious reasons, I agree that this is a wholly unsatisfactory way of ranking authors.
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 4, 2021 17:36:54 GMT
I wonder if there's any good reason D. Morris only chose to write the one FF book (probably not). Was he not offered enough money? Had he told all the FF stories he wanted to tell in just the one? Was it that he preferred his other projects?
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Post by a moderator on Nov 4, 2021 17:50:54 GMT
Between his own series (Golden Dragon, Blood Sword, Virtual Reality, Fabled Lands, the non-gamebook Dragon Warriors and Chronicles of the Magi) and the various tie-in series on which he worked (both gamebooks and novelettes), I think Dave Morris was busy enough without chasing after further FF commissions.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 4, 2021 18:27:36 GMT
I wonder if there's any good reason D. Morris only chose to write the one FF book (probably not). Was he not offered enough money? Had he told all the FF stories he wanted to tell in just the one? Was it that he preferred his other projects? I seem to recall an interview from a while back where he said he didn't really care for Titan as a setting (which might explain why Keep fits so badly into it). Though I imagine the main factor was he was too busy with other stuff.
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Post by tyrion on Nov 4, 2021 19:03:55 GMT
He did put forward a fair few other suggestions: Curse of the god king Mists of horror Thirst .... And of course, the best title ever Dinosaurs of death
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 4, 2021 19:10:03 GMT
.... And of course, the best title ever Dinosaurs of death And when he looked into pitching that idea for a book, whatever his thoughts on the FF setting he did go to the trouble of reading up on Vymorna in 'Titan' and 'Battleblade Warrior'.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 4, 2021 22:36:26 GMT
I wonder if there's any good reason D. Morris only chose to write the one FF book (probably not). Was he not offered enough money? Had he told all the FF stories he wanted to tell in just the one? Was it that he preferred his other projects? Do you want me to ask him?
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 5, 2021 5:07:11 GMT
I wonder if there's any good reason D. Morris only chose to write the one FF book (probably not). Was he not offered enough money? Had he told all the FF stories he wanted to tell in just the one? Was it that he preferred his other projects? Do you want me to ask him? He's been on these forums hasn't he? I think the answers I've been given have been adequate.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 5, 2021 9:17:37 GMT
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 5, 2021 10:05:41 GMT
Sounds like a print version of Dungeon Keeper! I get why it was rejected. Its nuances would be unappealing for younger audiences, the non-traditional approach would be a throw of the dice in terms of the audience numbers (probably fewer tbh), and with the optimal route discovered, it's replay value could be limited. Then there's the fact you are fighting heroes, instead of being a hero; given my parents were pro censorship about regular FF books, they probably would have campaigned against it.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 5, 2021 10:47:53 GMT
Do you want me to ask him? He's been on these forums hasn't he? I think the answers I've been given have been adequate. No, Dave has never been on these forums. However, the answers given by others on this thread were probably reasonably accurate. I only asked as I was just about to send him an email.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 5, 2021 11:00:26 GMT
I get why it was rejected. It wasn't actually rejected, the series got cancelled before it had a chance to develop beyond a concept.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Nov 5, 2021 19:21:40 GMT
He's been on these forums hasn't he? I think the answers I've been given have been adequate. No, Dave has never been on these forums. However, the answers given by others on this thread were probably reasonably accurate. I only asked as I was just about to send him an email. Interview with him in the forthcoming issue.
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 5, 2021 21:16:18 GMT
No, Dave has never been on these forums. However, the answers given by others on this thread were probably reasonably accurate. I only asked as I was just about to send him an email. Interview with him in the forthcoming issue. I hope D. Morris writes more FF, he is a talented writer, and if anything his preference for his own gamebook style over the Titan universe enhances the quality of his work.
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Post by tyrion on Nov 5, 2021 23:30:46 GMT
He has just written (along with Jamie Thomson) the vulcanverse books, if that is of any interest. Plus there's all the fabled lands, blood sword, critical if and golden dragon books to have a go at.
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