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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:49:23 GMT
From TUFFF... This I've known for a while, now. Being a fan of Deathtrap Dungeon in my youth, I made sure to pick this book as soon as possible. I presume just reading the title was enough to tell me it was a sequel of sort to one of my favourite gamebooks, so it was really a no-brainer. L'épreuve des champions... even young I thought, even though I enjoy this book, something is missing. Back then, I assumed it had something to do with the size of the book, very thin, with space wasted on gladitorial games. Those games were nice but seemed to take away from the dungeon itself, passages and rooms perhaps, traps, creatures... For my younger self, the more time I spent roaming the dark corridors of death, the better. Nowadays I think it's a bit more than this. Sure if the book had more sections, or at the very least more text, it might help. But not exactly the way I once expected. See, the dungeon itself ain't that bad. It's hard as hell (as it should be, I guess) and a bit redundant (but then again, it's a sequel, usually aim at people who want more of the same), but still fun, and with a few original parts. No, nowadays what I think is missing is atmosphere. From the text and from the illos. Iain McCaig's illos for Deathtrap Dungeon were dark and atmospheric, dirty, full of textures. You could never quite tell what the walls were made of. It was oppressing. Rooms looked dangerous everywhere you look. Just stepping on the wrong stone looked like it could doom you. On the other hand, while Brian Williams illos are awesome in their own rights, they are much too clean, much too tidy. All the passageways and rooms looks man-made with clean bricks. Floors have been swept clean of any nastiness. Corridors are regular affairs. I knew Baron Sukumvit modified his dungeon, but I didn't knew he went to such extreme as hiring an army of maids to keep everything clean. Clean is not scary. Regularity and order is not confusing (which is not what you want to achieve in such a trial). But Williams isn't to blame for everything. Livingstone is also to blame by adding to the illos with his lack of descriptive narrative. I don't know if it was his intention on keeping everything brief, but everything is just too brief here. You never walk along a corridor in this book; instead you always reach a junction, a door, or some gizmo. Doors are described briefly, surroundings even more briefly. Rooms are mostly empty affairs with one thing sticking in the middle. Deathtrap was oozing with atmosphere; earthen walls dripped around you; it was smelly; the floor could get rock hard or muddy underneath your feet. You actually walked underneath light crystals and got the feeling of being entombed alive. Not so in Trial. Nothing much is said about where you stand. All the locations seems really close by and everything is left to your imagination. Or in this case, left to the illos complementing the text. And those illos are so damn neat. I kind of like the new cover by Martin Mckenna. I think it's very good, though a bit redundant with Williams illos inside, which was already well done. At the very least, the original cover tried for something different and is an important part of the main setting. Still, for all it's flaws, it's a fun book to read; especially for those who enjoyed Deathtrap in the first place. Though I would say that it might get tedious near the end of the dungeon, when it start doing it's bottle-neck thing and falls into a special brand of frustration. Suffice to say that this book is far from fair! I'd add, as a bit of trivia info, that again, the french version is full of missing illos. I counted 6 at the very least. Some great missing: The Eastern Warlord and the Liche Queen. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:50:41 GMT
From TUFFF... I have some little questions for you guys. First a very basic language question: How do you pronounce Liche Queen? I've got an idea, but I don't think I ever heard it spoken, so... and I'm not asking about the queen part... My other is half observation/question: Coming off of Sword of the Samurai, some descriptions for "adversaries" made me wonder... there is an eastern slave and a eastern Warlord that you do battle with, with obvious asian traits, and a Southern man with black skin... bare with me.
Now, Hachiman is on the east side of Khul, they are Eastern people, I guess, but is there an equivalent on Allansia? Are black people found too in the south of Allansia?
It's all too Earth replica for my liking, frankly. It's a fantasy world; couldn't they at least put asian to the west and black people to the north just for a change? I'm half-kidding, but you know what I mean? I know that even Tolkien did it with Middle-Earth, but at least, the way I see it, Middle-Earth is supposed to become our present Earth. But Titan? I doubt it.
So, anybody versed in Titan's population and geography could help me out? I might find out on my own one day, after reading all the books, but right now it's puzzling. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:52:57 GMT
From TUFFF... The pronunciation is 'lɪtʃ' according to wikipedia
l lie, s ly, ga lɪ k it, l id, f ill, b in tʃ China, cat ch
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:54:22 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks Daikoku. That's actually how I pronounced it.
Should have thought to check wiki... Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:56:02 GMT
From TUFFF... Now, Hachiman is on the east side of Khul, they are Eastern people, I guess, but is there an equivalent on Allansia? Are black people found too in the south of Allansia?
It's all too Earth replica for my liking, frankly. It's a fantasy world; couldn't they at least put asian to the west and black people to the north just for a change? I'm half-kidding, but you know what I mean?
I know that even Tolkien did it with Middle-Earth, but at least, the way I see it, Middle-Earth is supposed to become our present Earth. But Titan? I doubt it.
So, anybody versed in Titan's population and geography could help me out? I might find out on my own one day, after reading all the books, but right now it's puzzling. Hachiman pre-dates Titan, I guess Hachiman actually WAS meant to be Japan but got retconned into the single world. Isles of the Dawn are literally Japan, though, look at the shapes of the islands, and of course the name is pretty much Land of the Rising Sun; the only difference in Mason/Williams' conception was that "Japan" moved to the mainland and "China" to the islands.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:57:21 GMT
From TUFFF... That's interesting. I didn't know about the Isles of the Dawn, since obviously I've not read up to there yet.
See, one of the things I'm wondering is if the Eastern Warlord in Trial of Champions is supposed to be from Hachiman (but isn't Khul supposed to be cut from the rest of the world) or if he is from another place that's similar to Hachiman.
That would diminish Hachiman's uniqueness, I believe. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:59:08 GMT
From TUFFF... isn't Khul supposed to be cut from the rest of the world Not easy to reach, but by no means cut off. There's a character in Khul-based book Phantoms of Fear who started out in Allansia.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 14:59:56 GMT
From TUFFF... Regarding the Easterners in TOC, at Titan_Rebuilding Yahoo! group we have a theory that there must be a colony of them in Allansia, that originally came from Hachiman/Isles of the Dawn, to allow for all the Asian influence in Allansia. One potential spot is the city of Bei-Han, in the Glimmering Sea area, which is at war with Kallamehr in Slaves of the Abyss, though there are probably others... Impudent Peasant!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:00:39 GMT
From TUFFF... I think Sword of the Samurai was the first book to suggest there was more to Titan than just Allansia. Earlier books were retconned into being set in Khul (Scorpion Swamp and Seas of Blood for instance) and I think Sorcery! was supposed to be set in a forgotten age of Earth's history (hence all that talk about the Dark Ages in the background). Since Ian probably wrote ToC at the same time as Mark and Jamie wrote SotS, it's probable Ian had no idea that they were designing a Japan equivalent at the same time he was including Easterners in his book.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:01:48 GMT
From TUFFF... Since Ian probably wrote ToC at the same time as Mark and Jamie wrote SotS, it's probable Ian had no idea that they were designing a Japan equivalent at the same time he was including Easterners in his book. That's kind of what I think. He probably went oops after but too late. He probably justified it by telling himself Titan is a pretty big place after all, anything could happen. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:03:01 GMT
From TUFFF... I think Sword of the Samurai was the first book to suggest there was more to Titan than just Allansia. Yes, SotS is the first book to name the world and its three continents (although the Old World is referred to as Kakhabad). Whether it was always intended to be in Titan or whether this was decided after the adventure was written, but before the intro was finalised, who knows.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:04:37 GMT
From TUFFF... I have some little questions for you guys.
First a very basic language question: How do you pronounce Liche Queen? I've got an idea, but I don't think I ever heard it spoken, so... and I'm not asking about the queen part... I've always in my head pronounced it as 'leesh', or sometime 'leech'. I.e. rhyming with 'quiche', 'niche' (I know this can also be pronounced 'nitch' in the US) and 'riche' (see, we are entirely indebted to the French language for lots of cool words!). But that could well just be me... Note that the very similar word 'lich' in English, meaning 'dead body', is definitely 'litch'.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:05:57 GMT
From TUFFF... Are black people found too in the south of Allansia? There aren't very many examples - the captain of the guard in 'Blacksand!' being one other that I can think of. Otherwise Black people in Titan are, rather politically incorrectly, members of diminutive primitive tribes in jungles, islands, and other out of the way places.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:07:02 GMT
From TUFFF... Now, Hachiman is on the east side of Khul, they are Eastern people, I guess, but is there an equivalent on Allansia? Are black people found too in the south of Allansia? Allansia does have quite a strong 'Eastern' (from an Earth perspective anyway) element to it, linguistically and genetically. See the 'Easterner' page on Titannica. Here are some examples: The Easterner
The Eastern Warlord
Bei-Han
Pen Ty Kora?
Kaypong
Chiang Mai
Ninjas
Fang-zen of Jitar
The Tribesmen of the Flatlands Not all 'Eastern' by any means, but plenty of evidence for what we, from Earth, might think of as 'Eastern'. A suggestion I've made is that the 'easterner' Tribesmen of the Flatlands are of the same origin as the obviously 'Eastern' inspired Lendleland Barbarians and central Khulian nomads. At some point, probably after the Splitting, maybe even after the War of the Wizards, they expanded in a number of directions in Allansia - pushing into the NW, where they formed the ruling elite (over a 'European' population) of Chiang Mai and Kaypong in the ruins of Gar-Goldoran, and pushing into Bei-Han, which would have been named something else beforehand, leading to renewed tensions in the Glimmering Sea. I suspect the Eastern Warlord comes from Bei-Han or somewhere similar, but it is possible that he has travelled from Khul I suppose.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:10:05 GMT
From TUFFF... Pretty thorough, Paltogue, thanks. ...rhyming with 'quiche', 'niche' (I know this can also be pronounced 'nitch' in the US) and 'riche' (see, we are entirely indebted to the French language for lots of cool words!) It's funny, quiche in french, the very same word, sounds just like riche (a bit like itch without the t sound)...
Plus, Liche, still from the french point of view, could easily be taken for the french verb to lick (of licking fame...)
Slightly funny, more then anything, but still... Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:11:21 GMT
From TUFFF... Thanks Daikoku. That's actually how I pronounced it.Should have thought to check wiki... It surprised me - I've always read it with a long i, something like lyche. Oops.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:12:31 GMT
From TUFFF... ...and I thought you were telling me something obvious! See, I was pronouncing it the right way (without knowing), but the e at the end threw me off. Anybody wants to teach me how to pronounce Gilead? I usually say Gil-had, like the jewish word, if I'm not mistaken. Also, what about Helgedad? For now I go with a soft G. G's are confusing in a lot of languages... Yea, perhaps I should have started a new thread, oh well. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:13:36 GMT
From TUFFF... There aren't very many examples - the captain of the guard in 'Blacksand!' being one other that I can think of. Otherwise Black people in Titan are, rather politically incorrectly, members of diminutive primitive tribes in jungles, islands, and other out of the way places. Mungo looks black in the illustrations. I've always pictured Oyster Bay as being like a Caribbean island. I also think Balthus Dire looks black in Russ Nicholson's illustration of him. But yeah, I'd have to agree, there are few black people on Titan. It's like the Star Wars universe. Back to Trial of Champions, while I do agree that Deathtrap Dungeon is better, ToC does have the bonus of having a complete bastard of a villain. Wasting a small fortune and scores of innocent lives in the off chance that it will upset his brother takes pettiness to whole new levels. Nothing quite as satisfying as fulfilling your promise to the Southerner and killing Carnuss at the end.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:14:58 GMT
From TUFFF... Also, what about Helgedad? For now I go with a soft G. I would go with a soft G too. Although for years I would have pronounced Kai as "Kah" rather than "Kye". Then when I started watching unhealthy amounts of Lexx I got into the habit of saying it Kye.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 14, 2013 15:15:34 GMT
From TUFFF... When I was young I said it like this: Kaeee! But now it's Kye. And I must admit, Carnuss is quite the bastard. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by nathanh on Jan 23, 2014 20:48:21 GMT
I got this book today, having not played it for 15 years or so. I'm surprised how much I'm liking it, even though the descriptions are a bit brief. I had the recollection that it wasn't very good, but it's alright so far. The bit at the start is cool the first few times, but once you work out the optimum path it's quite tedious to go through. On the other hand, it gives you opportunity to die almost immediately if you roll a low skill, which is always nice in an adventure like this.
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 11:35:10 GMT
My TUFF playthrough (sans stats, but it's the commentary on the book that matters, right?):
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 23, 2015 16:08:19 GMT
I love this book! Magic! Fantastic Atmosphere! Brilliant beginning! Amazing return to the Deathtrap Dungeon. More one of Livingstone's Masterpieces, with Deathtrap Dungeon, City of Thieves and Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 4, 2015 12:53:39 GMT
Trial of Champions - A tremendous masterpiece from Livingstone. Such a magical book. Such a perfect book to me. Absolutely complete. Possibly, my second favourite FF book of all my Fighting Fantasy Books.
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Post by hynreck on Aug 4, 2015 14:07:03 GMT
Yes, because posting about this once is never enough. I look forward to your next post saying just about the same thing but with an even bigger font and possibly, could I ask?, colours?
Oh, and I just saw that your favourite gamebook series is now Crypt of the Sorcerer? Good going. Enjoy this epic series of 1 book.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 4, 2015 14:44:48 GMT
Trial of Champions - A tremendous masterpiece from Livingstone. Such a magical book. Such a perfect book to me. Absolutely complete. Possibly, my second favourite FF book of all my Fighting Fantasy Books. Not that this isn't informative or anything but could you go into a bit more detail like which bits did you like and which bits you didn't. what makes this book stand out to you? What makes it memorable?
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 4, 2015 16:39:17 GMT
Trial of Champions - the Quest with the greatest suffering, the greatest passion, and the greatest solitude. - Magical Book.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 4, 2015 17:03:22 GMT
I dunno if you suffer that much. You're a slave for like a week. The heroes of Bloodbones, Creature of Havoc, Moonrunner and The Crimson Tide definitely have it harder.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Dec 22, 2015 12:24:34 GMT
When they took off my mask and i saw his eyes... the moment when all sense of ethics, duty, justice, morality, and honor are murdered just leading to a blind single feeling of a "Kill them all." That is called revenge. Sacred.
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Post by Jon on Dec 24, 2015 16:56:45 GMT
As with the story of Maior, you are supposed to show mercy in the last instance. Maior had to spare Feior to be free from the Black Vein Prophecy.
The formerly masked warrior can share a cell with Feior, I suppose.
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