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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 27, 2017 14:09:59 GMT
I have been keeping watch for the Deathtrap Dungeon solution update from Champskees and I am delighted to have had a quick read in my dinner break at work. I do the most boring job in the world for Sheffield council.
The probability analysis is startling. Even a 9/24/12 avatar has a 0% chance of winning. How about that.
My solution where the difficulty was ramped up radically has a 2% chance of success which feels about right.
I fear I am turning the board into a trainspotters paradise.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 28, 2017 0:36:40 GMT
It is late but I have spotted something a bit strange about Champskees solution.
If you roll an 8 or more and have the rope you are committed to -2 luck. There are then 2 more luck rolls to make because you are committed to acquiring the grappling iron. This is an aggregate of -4 luck but you do acquire +2 luck before the decisive bone monkey charm luck roll. I am not sure what to make of this. This seems to suggest you need a 12 luck in the first instance so is 12/24/12 the minimum for Champskees? If you are 'pushing the limits' with 11/14/7 on this schema your luck will be devastated and you will have very little chance of successfully using the bone monkey charm with only 5 luck.
If you roll an 8 or more and do not have the rope then you are committed to -2 skill. This seems plausible but you are not commanded to take the Potion of Skill which is a bit strange as you are deterministically required to fight the Pit Fiend. For sake of argument Champskees seems to be suggesting 12 skill is required as a starting point but this means you will be fighting the 12 skill Pit Fiend with only 10 skill. As a betting man I know where my money is going in that instance. What about drinking the Potion of Skill and defeating the Pit Fiend and then taking a chance against the Ninja?
Champskees does not give an option to avoid reaching for the grappling iron if you have lost the rope and if this is the case the grappling iron is worthless. If you reach for the grappling iron you lose -1 skill or -3 skill for no possible gain. If you follow the logic you should take the -2 skill and then take the Potion of Skill immediately to benefit especially if you have a natural 12 skill. You will have a chance against the Pit Fiend. Ultimately you have to take your chances with the Ninja but at worst you will be an even match.
I am not at all sure there is an easy answer to the question as to when to drink the Potion of Skill. I offer in my solution 3 plausible instances as to when to drink the Potion of Skill. There is no doubt it is ideal to save it for the primary attack by the Ninja as the subsequent fight is unavoidable.
Champskees decision calculus seems to be skewed towards 12/24/12 where the solution makes most sense in that instance.
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Post by champskees on Nov 28, 2017 6:09:14 GMT
It is late but I have spotted something a bit strange about Champskees solution. If you roll an 8 or more and have the rope you are committed to -2 luck. There are then 2 more luck rolls to make because you are committed to acquiring the grappling iron. This is an aggregate of -4 luck but you do acquire +2 luck before the decisive bone monkey charm luck roll. I am not sure what to make of this. This seems to suggest you need a 12 luck in the first instance so is 12/24/12 the minimum for Champskees? If you are 'pushing the limits' with 11/14/7 on this schema your luck will be devastated and you will have very little chance of successfully using the bone monkey charm with only 5 luck. If you roll an 8 or more and do not have the rope then you are committed to -2 skill. This seems plausible but you are not commanded to take the Potion of Skill which is a bit strange as you are deterministically required to fight the Pit Fiend. For sake of argument Champskees seems to be suggesting 12 skill is required as a starting point but this means you will be fighting the 12 skill Pit Fiend with only 10 skill. As a betting man I know where my money is going in that instance. What about drinking the Potion of Skill and defeating the Pit Fiend and then taking a chance against the Ninja? Champskees does not give an option to avoid reaching for the grappling iron if you have lost the rope and if this is the case the grappling iron is worthless. If you reach for the grappling iron you lose -1 skill or -3 skill for no possible gain. If you follow the logic you should take the -2 skill and then take the Potion of Skill immediately to benefit especially if you have a natural 12 skill. You will have a chance against the Pit Fiend. Ultimately you have to take your chances with the Ninja but at worst you will be an even match. I am not at all sure there is an easy answer to the question as to when to drink the Potion of Skill. I offer in my solution 3 plausible instances as to when to drink the Potion of Skill. There is no doubt it is ideal to save it for the primary attack by the Ninja as the subsequent fight is unavoidable. Champskees decision calculus seems to be skewed towards 12/24/12 where the solution makes most sense in that instance. Sorry, I only updated the solution briefly but the iron should only be taken if you have the rope. Also if you take the -2 skill pill then yes you should take the potion of skill afterwards. The code I ran did take these steps. I might have to run the program to check if -2 skill irregardless of rope/no rope is feasible. It looks rather promising on face value. Thankyou.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 5, 2017 18:56:41 GMT
I am in autistic pedantic mode again.
I have noticed Champskees now needs to change his introductory blurb about how you must lose at least 1 skill point in his solution.
This is not right because 1 You lose the rope 2 You roll a 7 3 You do not need to reach for the grappling iron 4 You pass the luck roll
This means the Potion of Skill is superfluous if these dice rolls are realized.(stupid American software. I do not live in Alabama)
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jun 24, 2019 19:07:59 GMT
Remember walking through those unceasable corridors.. The absence of air... I was getting mad... Truly mad.. I remember striking a wall with my own head.. At one point it does not matter anymore the monsters or the traps.. But the never ending prison was getting me really mad.. One corridor after another... And another... And another... At some point I let my self fall in the ground and let my conscious fly away... It was just too much to my mind
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Post by daredevil123 on Jun 24, 2019 19:41:38 GMT
Is this Vagsancho's origin story?
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 24, 2019 22:09:43 GMT
Is this Vagsancho's origin story? No far too rational.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jun 25, 2019 20:47:35 GMT
"good luck" "good luck" "good luck" "good luck"... Like cannonballs.. Two simple words echoing in my mind non-stop... With 3 dry blows I sent him to Hell.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 25, 2019 20:47:58 GMT
Heaven help you in the Maze Of Zagor...
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 25, 2019 20:51:54 GMT
Heaven help you in the Maze Of Zagor... Late 1983/early 1984 when my Dad bought me this I ended up completely lost and frustrated.
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Post by daredevil123 on Jun 25, 2019 21:44:34 GMT
Heaven help you in the Maze Of Zagor... Late 1983/early 1984 when my Dad bought me this I ended up completely lost and frustrated. Yeah, getting lost in the maze was one of the few times I outright gave up in an FF book.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jun 26, 2019 12:25:10 GMT
Late 1983/early 1984 when my Dad bought me this I ended up completely lost and frustrated. Yeah, getting lost in the maze was one of the few times I outright gave up in an FF book. That really seems like it was big mistake by Jackson. I wonder how many readers gave up on gamebooks in general never to return over that. Hopefully not too many.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 26, 2019 12:57:54 GMT
The only way I could get through the maze as a nipper was to write down section numbers and keep trying ones I hadn't tried yet. Unfortunately doing that in his Starship Traveller maze can get you killed.
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Post by philsadler on Jun 26, 2019 13:50:17 GMT
The same thing (dislike of mazes) happened to me in Alice's Nightmare in Wonderland. Tried and tried, got bored, stopped playing.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jun 26, 2019 14:02:27 GMT
Its kind of odd considering the comments about the two authors on the boards that most readers seem to prefer the Livingstone part over the Jackson part? lol.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 26, 2019 14:06:33 GMT
I like the Jackson part up to the maze - all the undead bits are pretty cool. I also love the magic tools. The maze isn't really an issue now but it's not exactly engaging. I also don't like the Zagor fight all that much - plenty of options but anyone with the correct keys will also have the eye of the cyclops that kills him instantly .
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jun 26, 2019 19:53:46 GMT
City of thieves is awesome. Giant nostalgia. Magic atmosphere. Big storyline. But it has weak points. Deathtrap dungeon is better. IT HAS NOT ANY WEAK POINT. Undoubtedly better. spetacular storyline. Spectacular book. Épic. I would say Livingstone's MASTERPIECE, strangely however, I am one of the few who prefer Trial of Champions to deathtrap dungeon.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 26, 2019 21:06:31 GMT
City of thieves is awesome. Giant nostalgia. Magic atmosphere. Big storyline. But it has weak points. Deathtrap dungeon is better. IT HAS NOT ANY WEAK POINT. Undoubtedly better. spetacular storyline. Spectacular book. Épic. I would say Livingstone's MASTERPIECE, strangely however, I am one of the few who prefer Trial of Champions to deathtrap dungeon. What do you prefer about Trial? One thing I like about it over Deathtrap Dungeon is I feel it has a more artificial feel to it - perhaps due to the art more than anything else. It feels more like the specially constructed deadly gameshow dungeon it is while Deathtrap Dungeon feels more like a complex of tunnels with its own creatures that have been sort of co-opted into Sukumvit's challenge. I also like that Trial has more of a plot than just being someone who fancies almost certainly dying for a bit of cash. That aside, Deathtrap Dungeon is (imo) better designed, more imaginative, has cooler monsters and much better art. It's also a lot less unfair. The rivals are a good bit better too - Throm and the ninja in particular. And that dwarf trial master is one of the few villains in FF that actually gets an emotional reaction out of me - absolutely hate the guy!
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jun 26, 2019 22:05:36 GMT
City of thieves is awesome. Giant nostalgia. Magic atmosphere. Big storyline. But it has weak points. Deathtrap dungeon is better. IT HAS NOT ANY WEAK POINT. Undoubtedly better. spetacular storyline. Spectacular book. Épic. I would say Livingstone's MASTERPIECE, strangely however, I am one of the few who prefer Trial of Champions to deathtrap dungeon. And that dwarf trial master is one of the few villains in FF that actually gets an emotional reaction out of me - absolutely hate the guy! Killing him does not satisfy you?
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Post by philsadler on Jun 27, 2019 8:28:43 GMT
Deathtrap Dungeon is also a lot less unfair.
DD is one of the least 'fair' books in the entire range. It would be a real challenge to complete it with a skill of 10 (and other high stats), not because it's challenging per say, but because it's so unfair.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 27, 2019 8:36:19 GMT
And that dwarf trial master is one of the few villains in FF that actually gets an emotional reaction out of me - absolutely hate the guy! Killing him does not satisfy you? I must admit it is quite satisfying wiping the smirk off his face even if it is a bad idea from a gameplay perspective.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 27, 2019 8:40:12 GMT
Deathtrap Dungeon is also a lot less unfair.
DD is one of the least 'fair' books in the entire range. It would be a real challenge to complete it with a skill of 10 (and other high stats), not because it's challenging per say, but because it's so unfair.
Quite so, but compare it to Trial of Champions: When I ranked the whole series based on fairness of dice rolls on the easiest paths using Champskees' calculations, Deathtrap Dungeon came 49th out of 71. Trial of Champions came 66th. DD also lets you have some deviation from the one true path while Trial does not.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jun 27, 2019 13:00:31 GMT
Looking at those numbers Im starting to wonder if they should have just assigned character starting stats in the books instead of having you roll for them. At least for the Skill stat anyway. Then they wouldnt have had to try to make the books playable for 7-12 skill ranges (if they even did this anyway!). There is just WAYYYYYYY too much riding on that initial skill roll most times.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 27, 2019 13:49:14 GMT
Looking at those numbers Im starting to wonder if they should have just assigned character starting stats in the books instead of having you roll for them. At least for the Skill stat anyway. Then they wouldnt have had to try to make the books playable for 7-12 skill ranges (if they even did this anyway!). There is just WAYYYYYYY too much riding on that initial skill roll most times. This is why I tend to play either 7/14/7 or 12/14/7 so the tedious rolls for fighting are a formality, hopefully, but when it comes to the luck rolls there is some uncertainty and also it necessitates managing your luck for the best outcome. Exceptions that prove the rule are Crypt and Spellbreaker where it is simply a case of going for whatever seems best.
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Post by vastariner on Jul 3, 2019 7:43:41 GMT
Looking at those numbers Im starting to wonder if they should have just assigned character starting stats in the books instead of having you roll for them. At least for the Skill stat anyway. Then they wouldnt have had to try to make the books playable for 7-12 skill ranges (if they even did this anyway!). There is just WAYYYYYYY too much riding on that initial skill roll most times. There's also the sheer implausibility of someone with Sk7-9 even trying to become a hero in the first place. Given that the first thing with claws would do a pretty decent job of cutting them to shreds.
Might have been interesting to play skill off against magic. So that if you have Sk7 you have 5 spells under your belt...
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 3, 2019 17:23:15 GMT
Looking at those numbers Im starting to wonder if they should have just assigned character starting stats in the books instead of having you roll for them. At least for the Skill stat anyway. Then they wouldnt have had to try to make the books playable for 7-12 skill ranges (if they even did this anyway!). There is just WAYYYYYYY too much riding on that initial skill roll most times. There's also the sheer implausibility of someone with Sk7-9 even trying to become a hero in the first place. Given that the first thing with claws would do a pretty decent job of cutting them to shreds.
Might have been interesting to play skill off against magic. So that if you have Sk7 you have 5 spells under your belt...
I said recently Citadel anticipated what you are saying so I wonder if all later entries should have had clear magic rules or weapons with clear attack strength rules to balance a moderate attributes adventurer. It is strange over the years because some people say a book is 'wrong' because it allows you to win with a modest adventurer while on the other hand some books are 'wrong' because they require utterly forbidding dice rolls from beginning to end. I am sympathetic to Citadel and Forest because they obey the rules. The only thing I wish is more 'deduct a number cheat traps' in them so it is obvious people who have carefully exploited the rules are rewarded by them.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jul 3, 2019 18:23:56 GMT
Yeah as I work my way through the range again I have to say Im impressed with how much Citadel seems to get right from a design standpoint, and that it was #2 in the series is incredible! Im surprised more books didnt use the Dire fight as a template for their final battles. Was Citadel not popular on release?
In that vein, was Deathtrap Dungeon a huge hit at the time of release as Im lead to believe? I was playing them back then of course but being about 10 years old I honestly cant remember that far back as to each individual books popularity. I do remember Fighting Fantasy as a whole was very popular, but it was usually talked about as the series in general and I dont recall any one book being held up higher than any others in terms of popularity. If it did explode, then I guess we have that to thank for the increasing level of irrational difficulty. lol. You cant really blame the authors if far and away the most difficult book to date is the most popular one then it only makes sense that they would keep dialing up the difficulty level.
What does kind puzzle me is the lengths some of the authors go with the anti-cheat mechanisms. I mean, its a solo adventure so if someone wants to cheat then that is up to them I guess. Did they take it as a personal affront or something? Its like if you saw someone cheating playing solitaire and you kicked the cards away screaming "You arent playing the RIGHT way!!!!". Besides, if someone is inclined to cheat they will probably find a way to do it in any case. I wonder if some of these mechanisms might have ironically just ended up making it more difficult for the fair minded players such as ourselves!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 3, 2019 19:35:53 GMT
I remember the gamebooks in the last year of primary school which was late 83/early 84 and I remember gamebooks such as Forest or Lizard being considered easy because even if you played with no idea whatsoever you could just turn to the relevant page, as if you had that item, even if you had achieved nothing.
There is no problem in tripping up an 11 or 12 year old so it is perceived as merely apparent that a gamebook is very difficult when the reality is a typical 11 or 12 year old has no intent to be honest whereby they will want to follow the rules to win through.
If a gamebook has a system of -100 and codewords this is bread and butter to people like us but it does trip up the casual dabbler and the gamebooks are none the worse due to this kind of design.
The upshot is gamebooks, arguably, should have followed the design of Citadel where the average adventurer(7/14/7) could win if you exploited the rules and the gamebooks should have been constructed in such a way that the 'casual cheat' would be tripped up. This has two advantages in that it forces the casual adventurer to focus on the mechanics and it creates more people like us who love the design.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Jul 3, 2019 20:30:08 GMT
I havent played all of his books yet but does Ian use codewords or reference puzzles in any? I cant think of any from the ones I have played but I may be forgetting one. There are the keys in Warlock of course but that sure seems like a Steve Jackson idea. Ian just seems to require you to make a series of improbably lucky dice rolls. Which of course, wouldnt stop cheating at all. Im just struggling to come up with reasons on why he would make some of them so hard.
Perhaps Ive got it backwards. Its the beating of the book fairly that is the true affront. How dare we!
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Post by a moderator on Jul 3, 2019 21:36:40 GMT
From Trial of Champions onwards, most if not all of Ian Livingstone's books contain assorted numbered items, most of which are essential for completion of the adventure. And the difficult rolls get harsher.
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