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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:34:43 GMT
masterchief: _________________________________________ Do you love this book so much you tuck it under the covers at night? Did you hate it so badly you used it as loo-roll? Let the world know!
~MC~
~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:42:04 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ And now comes the classic Deathtrap Dungeon, a beloved adventure for many fans and one of FF's biggest seller.
Plenty already has been said about this book and since it's been experienced by nearly all FF fans out there (can you really be a FF fan and not have played Deathtrap or Warlock?) I'll try to keep my review on a much more personal level.
Deathtrap Dungeon is one of my first FF books. Le labyrinthe de la mort, as it was called in French (literal translation: The Labyrinth of Death), is responsible for my early obsession with mazes and dungeons, traps and monstrous creatures. I've played the hell out of that book when I was young, even going as far as to map the book and making my friends roleplay it with me as dungeon master. My first edition soon fell into ruins, with the pages falling off, so a few years later I bought another pristine French edition which I kept, untouched, just for posterity. Yea I loved that book that much.
Now I own the English first re-edition from Wizard and even bought the new edition recently released with Stormslayer. I think I'm all set...
I like the new cover illustration by Mel Grant, but that original cover by Iain McCaig of the Bloodbeast is just badass and well... legendary! If there ever was an iconic cover, that's the one! That and the Shapeshifter on the cover of The Forest of Doom... But whereas Forest is a so-so adventure, Deathtrap delivers.
On the subject of the cover replacement, now with the Bloodbeast gone, not only is a great cover lost, but so is the Bloodbeast itself. There are no illustrations inside the book for the all-important Bloodbeast - which might seem odd for somebody new picking the book today - only two different illustrations of the skeleton warrior. With the original cover, whenever you managed to reach the Bloodbeast for the first time, there would always be that satisfying moment of realisation when you finally identified the cover's monstrosity.
Aside from that, all interior illustrations are instant classic by - again - Iain McCaig. All are spot on. Sure, I've got a lot of nostalgia going my way, but there are nearly no flaws to be found in all those drawings.
And what makes Deathtrap Dungeon so good? Well, while it's true it might not be the best story out there, light on characterisation and so, the setting is very clever, very fitting of the way a FF book should be played, and the adventure itself is very interesting, full of clever traps, varied and fun monsters, of unexpected twist and turn. Reading the book again very recently, I was particularly struck by how much longer the book turns out to be if you take the right way (all the wrong ways concludes much faster) and how much more fun it was, albeit much more dangerous, granted. It's particularly interesting if you manage to "meet" all the other contestants along the way. It gives a great sense of cohesion to the story, to the fact that you are not alone in this trial. Not that the whole dungeon isn't cohesive in itself. While the traps and monsters encountered in themselves might seems very disparate, the whole premise of the setting, it's cleverness, allows for all sorts of encounter, without making the book feels like another mess like The Forest of Doom. Contrary to the Forest, here all the different creatures and situations feels like they are part of the same freak show, put there with especial care by Baron Sukumvit.
All in all, while Deathtrap Dungeon is a hard book for non-cheaters out there, it is highly recommended as a level entry for beginners, as a good example of what a great FF book might look like.
Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:45:48 GMT
greenspine: _________________________________________ Aside from that, all interior illustrations are instant classic by - again - Iain McCaig. All are spot on. Sure, I've got a lot of nostalgia going my way, but there are nearly no flaws to be found in all those drawings. I can't argue with that 'nearly', but one mistake in the artwork was highlighted in Warlock magazine. Section 164 indicates that the person whose footprints you are following is wearing boots, but the illustration of his corpse by section 299 shows him to be barefoot.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:48:42 GMT
vastariner: _________________________________________ That's because his boots were dissolved by the Giant Amoeba (Sk4, St22) that he walked through before you got there.
Ironic that DD is one of the most beloved gamebooks, when there's no world-saving storyline; it's just you on reality TV.
Incidentally, how does the economics of the thing work? A bunch of people walking into a void and then not emerging? What keeps the spectators interested? Must be some scrying pools displayed on crystals to those outside...
And who is watching to see if anyone emerges? You could hide in a room, munch provisions for a while and pop back out via the entrance a week later. Or what if it took you a month to hack your way through? Who greets you on your exit?
The main failing of the book is the lack of exploration. In a dungeon scenario it would be much easier to allow a more freestyle wander through, a la Scorpion Swamp. There's no time limit per se, unless one assumes another competitor might beat you to the gems. And at least Livingstone resisted the temptation to stick a bloody shop in there.
But the illustrations are the best of the lot.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:50:07 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ ahahahah, well observed vastariner! I admit I always wondered what could be so exciting to watch a bunch of great looking losers entering a hole in the ground and never coming out. No wonder they needed to create a festival to entertain the mass.
All the same, I still think the adventure itself is great, Livingstone should just have name a device of sort in there to explain how people could keep interest in "watching" the trial. Some kind of giant magic screen showing each contestant's progress?
Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:52:43 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ Hell, what's going on with the font on this site anyway? Sometime it's small, sometime it's huge. Something I'm missing? Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:54:58 GMT
tawraste: _________________________________________ I've recently got back into these books, I've found I love them just as much as I did 20 years ago. However, for whatever reason I literally don't have entries 169 and 170 in my Deathtrap Dungeon !?!?!?!?
Would some kind person please quote the text of these two entries for me? I don't know if they're crucial pages to win or not, but I'm reluctant to start a proper adventure without them.
Many thanks,
tawraste
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 13:56:03 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ That's weird. I'm at the job right now so I can't help, maybe someone else?
Or later then, if I get around to it!
Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:00:57 GMT
greenspine: _________________________________________ 169
He eyes you suspiciously as you offer him a portion of your Provisions. But hunger overcomes his fear and he crams the food into his mouth. You ask him what he is doing in the tunnels, and he explains that he is a servant of one of the Trialmasters, Baron Sukumvit's appointed controllers of sections of his dungeon. He tells you he would like to escape, but no one is allowed to leave the dungeon in case the secret of its construction is revealed. You tell him that you are a contestant in the Trial of Champions and that you would appreciate any help. Rubbing his chin, he turns to you and says. 'One good turn deserves another. All I can tell you is that in a northern tunnel there is a wooden chair carved in the shape of a demon bird. There is a secret panel in the arm of the chair which contains a potion in a glass phial. It's a Doppelganger Potion. Now I must go about my duties. Good luck. I hope we meet again outside these infernal tunnels.' The man then shuffles off and you continue your journey west. Turn to 109.
I need to get to a meeting at 8:00, so I don't have time to do 170 right now, but if nobody else has done it by the time I get back, I'll add that one.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:03:28 GMT
tawraste: _________________________________________ Gents, thats awesome! Thanks a million !
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:04:11 GMT
greenspine: _________________________________________ 170
As you approach the prostrate figure, you see that it is one of your rivals in the Trial of Champions. It is in fact the Elf, and she is fighting for her life in the bone-crushing grip of an enormous BOA CONSTRICTOR. If you wish to help her, turn to 281. If you would rather leave her to defend herself and walk back to the tunnel to head north, turn to 192.
Are those the only missing sections? In my copy of the book, 171 and 172 are on the back of the same page, and I'm puzzled as to how you could be missing one side of the page but not the other.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:06:50 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ As you approach the prostrate figure... I read: as you approach the prostate...
Now that would have been frightening!! Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:07:56 GMT
symm: _________________________________________ It's 1456h CET and I just got sliced up by the Ninja... ...in other words: I'm looking for compassion here. Halt, or I shall loose an arrow at you.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:09:42 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ Ahah sushi boy!!
Sorry, couldn't resist. Guess that's not what you were looking for. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:19:40 GMT
symm: _________________________________________ First the Pit Fiend mauled me down to Stamina 1 (By the way: Where is that damned dwarf to toss me down more food?!?) and then this rice eater started throwing star-edged discs at me. Of course all my luck was put into the fight with the monster mentioned before and after two blows I hit the marbled floor...
Halt, or I shall loose an arrow at you.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:20:52 GMT
sylas: _________________________________________ Gotta give it to the master, Iain McCaig for his awesome Ninja illustration. An image given all the more impact by nothing more than a big circle.
Two Words
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:23:54 GMT
kieran: _________________________________________ Gotta give it to the master, Iain McCaig for his awesome Ninja illustration. An image given all the more impact by nothing more than a big circle. I wonder if the circle of bigness is meant to invoke the Japanese flag? Either way, it certainly does the trick.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:24:38 GMT
hynreck: _________________________________________ He's got his own rising sun, so you get blinded by his might.
Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:25:34 GMT
khaxzan: _________________________________________ Maybe its a giant moon?
The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:27:31 GMT
kieran: _________________________________________ That's no moon. It's a space station.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 1, 2013 14:31:00 GMT
gallicus: _________________________________________ That's no moon. It's a space station. (328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here.
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torallion
Squire
Posts: 12
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by torallion on Oct 3, 2013 10:34:15 GMT
In an attempt to get the conversation going again here's part of my review from my blog:
Writing: The descriptions do a good job of portraying the environment of Deathtrap Dungeon. The concept of the book is an entertaining one - the idea of a deadly contest is engaging and enables the writer to experiment with all sorts of inventive scenarios. In this way the adventure consists of a number of isolated and varied encounters but does not suffer because of it. As the player you feel like you are being constantly tested, and the presence of puzzles, traps and Trialmasters emphasises this. The only thing I feel could have been improved on is the interaction with the other contestants, or at least the effects of their passage through the dungeon before you. Writing: 4/5
Artwork: The dungeon is depicted superbly and the art does a great job of showing the reader how grim and dark the place is. The detail present in Ian McCaig's illustrations is amazing, especially in the drawings of the troglodytes, the mirror demon and the exit door, just to name a few. The bloodbeast on the cover is fantastic as well - such a shame they changed the cover for the Wizard reprint. Artwork: 5/5
Design: This book contains mechanisms that would later be described as 'classic Ian Livingstone'. The shopping list of required items, the extremely narrow true path and the plethora of unavoidable, powerful adversaries are all typical signs of his work. These are quite divisive among gamebook players, some of whom argue that gamebooks should not rely so much on luck, whether through the dice or through uninformed choice. However this is Deathtrap Dungeon - it has been designed by Baron Sukumvit as a twisted game to challenge participants in as punishing a way as possible. The very concept of this book gives the writer an excuse to demonstrate his style, and he has done so very successfully.
The dungeon itself is laid out in a fairly interesting way, giving the player various routes to choose from, even though many are on the 'wrong path'. Sometimes I could kind of tell that I was on the correct route because the encounters and puzzles were more interesting and greater in number. Some of the false paths towards the end seem to hurry you to the Bloodbeast's room, as if the writer didn't think it was worth fleshing them out when you were going to fail anyway. Design: 4/5
Fairness: I'm torn between two perspectives on this category. This book is downright unfair, there's no doubt about that. The only reason I finished it in so few attempts was that some memories came back to me as I played, such as the fact that crawling further down the slippery pipe after picking up the sapphire leads to instant death. That said, of all the books in the Fighting Fantasy series, this one (along with Trial of Champions) has the ultimate excuse - the dungeon is supposed to be unfair, and you are not expected to prevail. On one hand, this level of challenge enhances replay value and makes victory all the sweeter. On the other hand, replaying a book over and over until you find the solution becomes a mechanical exercise which isn't some players' idea of fun. Fairness: 3/5
Final score: 8/10
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Post by paltogue on Oct 3, 2013 12:35:01 GMT
In an attempt to get the conversation going again here's part of my review from my blog: Final score: 8/10 Good assessment of this one. It's a classic, partly because it is an unfair contest, but also because of the atmosphere and illustrations.
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Post by a moderator on Oct 3, 2013 15:15:02 GMT
Some of the false paths towards the end seem to hurry you to the Bloodbeast's room, as if the writer didn't think it was worth fleshing them out when you were going to fail anyway. Ian did that quite a lot in many of his subsequent books. I remember some particularly uneventful false paths in Temple of Terror and Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 8, 2015 19:35:45 GMT
Perhaps, one day, i will have the oportunity to feel the almost unspeakable pleasure of reading/feeling Deathtrap Dungeon again.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Sept 8, 2015 22:24:17 GMT
Perhaps, one day, i will have the oportunity to feel the almost unspeakable pleasure of reading/feeling Deathtrap Dungeon again. I have that problem when I think about Jessica Alba.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 9, 2015 7:19:26 GMT
the almost unspeakable pleasure of reading/feeling Deathtrap Dungeon again. I have that problem when I think about Jessica Alba.
True. But Jessica's beauty lasts for about 20 years. Deathtrap Dungeon goes beyond.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 9, 2015 11:37:31 GMT
Like the Bloodbeast, Jessica Alba has been known to sport fake eyes
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Post by hynreck on Sept 9, 2015 12:22:17 GMT
We need a Sin City pic of her.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 2, 2017 1:09:04 GMT
Deathtrap Dungeon solution now much more readable. The logic here is pretty clear so there is not too much room for manoeuvre.
One thing I have tried to make much more logical is when to take the Potion Of Skill. Rather than waiting for the last possible skill loss I now think it depends on whether you have the rope and so you will be trying to acquire the grappling iron.
Another factor is the test your gambling skill roll where you end up taking the -2 skill loss. This ties in with the above. The -2 luck loss is very punishing when alternatively you can be boosted back to your initial luck score with the +2 luck boost.
I am still not 100% sure about this but this seems more nuanced.
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