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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 26, 2021 1:33:24 GMT
I was wondering why you were leaving us waiting I guess it's the equivalent of that annoying pause you get in any TV show that involves competition: "And the winner is... ["Dramatic" music] ...aah bugger me it's so long ago I've forgotten"
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Post by ??? on Jan 26, 2021 13:25:42 GMT
what are the two missing books?
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Post by a moderator on Jan 26, 2021 13:49:13 GMT
They're both books that make your character out to be an expert at something, then repeatedly give you the option to be utterly incompetent in your purported field of expertise.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 26, 2021 13:51:59 GMT
They're both books that make your character out to be an expert at something, then repeatedly give you the option to be utterly incompetent in your purported field of expertise. Trying to recall if Sky Lord has been ranked already 😅
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Post by daredevil123 on Jan 26, 2021 15:07:33 GMT
It took me a while to work it out, but they're Phantoms of Fear and Siege of Sardath.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 27, 2021 19:01:03 GMT
I was wondering why you were leaving us waiting I guess it's the equivalent of that annoying pause you get in any TV show that involves competition: "And the winner is... ["Dramatic" music] ...aah bugger me it's so long ago I've forgotten" In those moments I yearn for the contestants being kept waiting like that to spark up a cigarette, chat quietly among themselves or maybe sit down and have a read of the paper or go on their mobiles.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Jan 28, 2021 12:54:19 GMT
In those moments I yearn for the contestants being kept waiting like that to spark up a cigarette, chat quietly among themselves or maybe sit down and have a read of the paper or go on their mobiles. Me too. Who knows, maybe they do, and it gets edited out?
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Post by The Count on Jan 30, 2021 23:42:39 GMT
So the common aspect of the next two books is the outstanding use of the Background / Introduction to segue into Paragraph 1 which immerses you fully into the story. One uses this to build up to a breath taking Paragraph 1, the other uses it to take your breath away before Paragraph 1.
Both are phenomenal gamebooks though one is a better tale and the other is a better game.
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Post by The Count on Jan 30, 2021 23:46:13 GMT
2 Phantoms of Fear 10 20 20 19 10 20 2 10 TOTAL 99 / FF 10
In some ways, this is a standard FF book: YOU have to defeat the random villain seeking to dominate Titan this time. What sets it head and shoulders above the vast majority of the series is the way this is implemented. The introduction is already a step above with your character defined and the scene being set extremely effectively, immediately pulling you into the story. There is more world building in those two paragraphs than other authors managed across manage in an entire book! A two page background section with prose worthy of fantasy greats establishes the plot of your quest with such conviction that you can visualise it happening. So, expecting this to then be straight into the usual half page Paragraph 1 with 3 choices…
I turned the page into the most exquisitely detailed and magnificently written Paragraph 1 ever! Four pages of immersive detail, captivating storytelling that is so wonderfully written. I can’t do this justice. No matter how many times I read it, I have the same reaction and extremely few books have that effect. From here, the prose flows beautifully no matter which path you take. Starting off with only the mere hint of the threat, with it inexorably builds as the landscape slowly and subtly alters around you. When you get to Ishtras lair, the ambition and genius of this book truly comes to light – the dream world. The myriad of possibilities is exceptionally well implemented and beautifully, surreally described alongside what is essentially a standard dungeon that reads as anything but. Defeating Ishtra can take place in one of two ways, and the difficulty between both is well balanced – the easy win needs a statistically difficult roll to make, various items to be gathered, and making the right decision, while the more combat oriented route needs careful consideration of every choice and enemy. At the start, fights are against forest creatures and nature based entities, while they become more chaotic and daemonic as you pass into the area under the growing influence of Ishtra, with dream world adding a few bizarre encounters. These are well balanced across the spectrum and include some lovely unique creatures such as the Arctolyce, N’Yadach and Angaroc as well as a smattering of Dark Elves, Ogres, Banshees, Golems – and even a horde of squirrels who you need to fight for food. The way certain items and story threads are included later on is wonderful, especially if you stumble on the cook which adds to the replay value when you discover these. The bizarre nod to the greater FF universe is a nice touch – subtle enough to add mystery for casual readers and a nice easter egg for the more dedicated readers. All of this adds to an incredibly electric atmosphere, perfectly woven for each different section. A few interesting instant deaths are delivered in a slightly off hand manner, though this does work.
There are a few flaws in the book: the pixie puzzle isn’t very clever and unnecessary, and while the Power stat is mostly wonderfully implemented, dream fights are balanced against you and the limited magic you have at your disposal cannot be used in the second half of the book.
One unfair criticism often levelled against this is the Trial of Ghosts, one of the most interesting sections. This is a very difficult puzzle, however it can be solved from 5 of the 6 starting points – those who say it is impossible haven’t actually attempted it – and you don’t need to pass it to proceed. Neither do you need to acquire a companion in another very difficult encounter that you have to think carefully about, but the option is there.
Having several routes to try and two main ways of winning gives great opportunities for replay and continued exploration. The narrative is stunning and overall it is a glorious triumph.
Ian Miller is an amazing artist. His unique way of illustrating warped, chaotic scenes cannot be beaten. Each piece of internal art is a masterpiece, perfectly capturing the forbidding aura and increasing dread: Tree Devil, Shapechanger, the various images of Affen Forest as Ishtra twists nature into something horrific, even the incidental art pieces all enhance the already descriptive writing and elevate the book beyond the average FF fare. Then you have the majestic Stags and menacing Cryo-Sphinx which are more crisp and stark in perfect unison with the text and mood. Unfortunately, the cover is quite bad. While perfectly suited for the subject, Morpheus, it makes a poor cover image especially with the green. The incidental four armed monster with the spiked tail or the warped tree would have been better.
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Post by The Count on Jan 30, 2021 23:49:24 GMT
1 Siege of Sardath 10 20 20 19 10 20 8 10 TOTAL 99 / FF 10
Most FF background sections are short and perfunctory, not really making you feel inspired or eager to read on. There are a few exceptions: and this is exceptional. It unfolds in an almost serene way and after delivering the wham line, effortlessly flows into Paragraph 1. It is wonderfully done and so well written that it still has an impact after being reread repeatedly. While enemies in the first section are not new, this is handled in such an innovative way and has a direct impact on the rest of the book beyond depleting your stats. As the narrative progresses, it emerges that this is as much a story as it is a puzzle with lots of subtle details and intricate nuances to the path. The pace is measured – a perfect balance between the mystery and urgency of your mission, and your caution as you proceed through the forest where you are aware of the dangers into the mountains area surrounding Sardath which is more unfamiliar territory. Each area and set piece flows into the other perfectly. Depending on the outcome of the opening segment, there are a couple of different routes through the forest: following the Elf path which further splits or taking the river where it is never clear if there are essential items to be gathered, though there are some subtle clues if you read very carefully. That some of these clues happen after they can be of any use would be annoying in any other book, here it just suggests that you may have taken the wrong route if you have been paying attention or that you made the right decision if you interpret it another way. In fact, a subtle clue that may help you in one particular section is hidden in the rules! Once you reach the mountains surrounding Sardath, the atmosphere shifts and once you find the Dark Elves lair, the palpable menace has grown from a background feature to be all encompassing – even with the unique circumstances that involve you getting there. Despite being rather linear, there are several twists and turns, lots of opportunity to explore where relevant (no random bumbling round the forest – you know where you are headed after all!) and some brilliantly executed false trails. While parts of the Dark Elf lair are essentially random and can be frustrating, it makes sense within the context, and this can be negated by finding a certain item. The possibility to bypass what you’d think would be a death trap is a particularly well executed segment, especially if you find the relevant clue earlier. The ability to use a bow is a nice touch. As well as being useful in certain situations, it adds to your character. And its touches like that which elevate this book – plot threads can be followed and picked up on later, certain details that seem innocuous can have a major impact on events. Finding the true path is incredibly difficult as there are several essential items, puzzles, false trails and number checks woven throughout the story, and getting through the final confrontation still requires careful thought to succeed due to an extremely tricky battle of wits. The various encounters are brilliantly placed for each area – Slykk, deadly plants and Giant Spiders in the forest, more unusual creatures like the Xanthic Horror and Toa Suo in the mountains, and Dark Elves in their city. Fights are well balanced – if anything they can be too easy if you make certain decisions – though it makes a nice change to have a tough book that doesn’t rely on you running an unending gauntlet of high skill enemies for difficulty. The time track is handled differently than in other books, and makes good use of it.
There are some minor issues: a couple of options don’t make sense given your character and the Itsu puzzle is unfair as not only does it require you to replicate it outside of the book and know what to do, the answer isn’t obvious even if you solve it correctly though you may not need him to complete the adventure so this may just be a nuisance instead of an impossible hurdle. Another small niggle is that quite a few instant deaths are essentially the same, which is a shame given the imagination used elsewhere.
Putting together every bit of this intricate puzzle is incredibly rewarding, and if you miss something, it is a pleasure to replay to try and find that elusive piece. This is a masterpiece of gameplay and a wonderful story.
The artwork is magnificent, and contains some key clues if you have been paying attention, while the cover is a well-executed piece – subtle yet dramatic in equal measure.
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Post by petch on Jan 31, 2021 10:58:17 GMT
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks Count for taking the considerable time to provide commentary on every book, it was an enormously fun read. It was pretty clear from fairly early on that your rankings of the many of the books fell quite a bit outside of mainstream opinion, so it was refreshing to hear a different take on some of the books that I (incorrectly) thought were pretty much universally admired, as well as seeing some love for some of the books that don't normally get much of it! Your scathing remarks on the titles towards the bottom of the list were very funny (even if I didn't always agree with your harshness some of the time!), but as we got towards the top of the list your enthusiasm for your favourite books in the series shone through with some detailed and really well considered reviews (especially the top 2 there, so I'll forgive the long wait ). Cheers!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 31, 2021 11:33:07 GMT
Interesting top 2. I like both books a lot and pleased to see them do well even if I personally wouldn't put them quite so high.
The Power stat in Phantoms is too flawed, rewarding players who already have a high stat and while I take your point that the Trial of Ghosts isn't quite as unfair as it first seems, it's still incredibly tedious and trying to avoid it means missing out on the dreamworld.
I disagree that the time track is well done in Siege, it seems utterly pointless to me. I also think there's one really nasty trick to the book that's up there with the Bonekeeper in Crypt of the Sorcerer for punishing a player for not doing something that no player would ever think to do. I also think some of the instant deaths are a bit excessive (Keith P Phillips recently admitted on Facebook that he thought that no big deal because he fully expected readers to cheat if they encountered one). Also, while Istu isn't strictly necessary, the mirror demon is a very tough fight without him.
Those gripes aside, I have to agree with you that both books are very memorable and innovative and are very respectable winners.
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Post by petch on Jan 31, 2021 14:27:12 GMT
My own copy of Siege has the Istu puzzle, as well as paragraph 277 on the reverse, missing as young me didn't have access to a photocopier (or indeed the sense to find another way around the issue that didn't involve defacing my book by ripping the page out). If memory serves I still couldn't solve the puzzle even after doing that and had to resort to scanning through every paragraph to find the solution.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 31, 2021 15:23:20 GMT
Tracing paper petch, tracing paper!!
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Post by petch on Jan 31, 2021 15:57:29 GMT
If only I'd thought of that 30 years ago!
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Post by tyrion on Jan 31, 2021 20:29:01 GMT
It has certainly been interesting reading the count's thoughts on each of the books. Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything he has said, it is good to see someone so passionate on the subject. Robin Waterfield is an excellent writer. I wish he had put as much effort into his other books as he had with phantoms of fear (even if rebel planet is possibly the best sci-fi ff) I wish I'd enjoyed siege of sardath as much when I was younger as I do now. Strangely, I didn't have a problem with the Istu puzzle this time around, although I couldn't solve it when I was younger. Keith P Phillips has got a crowdfunder on the go at the moment, a gamebook written by a group of young people. Looks interesting. link to crowdfunder
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Post by petch on Jan 31, 2021 21:54:18 GMT
Robin Waterfield is an excellent writer. I wish he had put as much effort into his other books as he had with phantoms of fear (even if rebel planet is possibly the best sci-fi ff) Yeah, I've always found this to be a bit of an oddity...the writing style of Waterfield's books are so markedly dissimilar it almost feels like they're by different authors. It was almost certainly a conscious design choice on his part but I agree, the writing in Phantoms is so rich, and demonstrates the gorgeous prose that Waterfield was capable of so well, it makes Masks of Mayhem and Deathmoor seem just lazy in comparison to me.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jan 31, 2021 22:04:15 GMT
After all these years, I never actually realized the guy on the cover of Phantoms was supposed to be Morpheus.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 31, 2021 22:04:25 GMT
This shows the power of collective intelligence versus a more idiosyncratic personal assessment of what really matters to you.
I feel the earlier vote mentioned by one of the leaders became a much more seasoned appraisal when only committed fans who were highly discerning were left for the more recent vote.
The personal assessment allows for vitriol where you feel it is deserved and you gave reasons however I recoiled in shock. The collective vote required a commentary that reflected the consensus so this mediated between extreme viewpoints though trends were manifestly apparent.
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Post by The Count on Feb 1, 2021 0:38:36 GMT
This shows the power of collective intelligence versus a more idiosyncratic personal assessment of what really matters to you. I feel the earlier vote mentioned by one of the leaders became a much more seasoned appraisal when only committed fans who were highly discerning were left for the more recent vote. The personal assessment allows for vitriol where you feel it is deserved and you gave reasons however I recoiled in shock. The collective vote required a commentary that reflected the consensus so this mediated between extreme viewpoints though trends were manifestly apparent. Yes, well the whole point of this thread is essentially about MY personal opinions, and those of those who wish to comment, discuss, debate, agree or disagree as they see fit. Which to me is far better than a collective agreement on what one is supposed to think (eg that DD is a masterpiece when it really isn't - the "community" dictates that this is the case and accepts no dissention, which is wrong). Which is why I got annoyed at someone earlier who swooped in to make a false accusation based on a comment I made about an author and then they subsequently refused to engage in any kind of conversation, instead sticking to that assumption. In groupthink, viewpoints are only heard if the enforce the consensus, essentially making that viewpoint extremist as it refuses dissention, discussion, debate and disagreement. These are kids books at the end of the day... I really couldn't care less what the group thinks, which is why I enjoy Sky Lord (which even I underrated!) & Chasms of Malice, and loathe Sorcery! If group opinion mattered, my Top 5 would be Howl, DD, CoH, NoN and KoK. And that would be boring. There are people complaining on the current FB "world cup" that "favourites" could be knocked out meaning something unexpected might just sneak in to the upper ranks for once - and its just an irrelevant set of polls!
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Post by The Count on Feb 1, 2021 0:49:37 GMT
Robin Waterfield is an excellent writer. I wish he had put as much effort into his other books as he had with phantoms of fear (even if rebel planet is possibly the best sci-fi ff) I remember reading somewhere that he didn't put much effort into Deathmoor as computer games had "killed" the market,even though I suspect it was an early rejected book that he made a few modifications to as there was a gap in the schedule. However given that Masks is similarly terse, I think he worked them to a deadline with a basic outline that he then built on gradually, and he held Phantoms back until he had finished it unlike the other 3 - Masks likely being tossed out so he could finish it. There are glimpses of the same magnificent prose in his other books.
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Post by The Count on Feb 1, 2021 0:56:39 GMT
I also think there's one really nasty trick to the book that's up there with the Bonekeeper in Crypt of the Sorcerer for punishing a player for not doing something that no player would ever think to do. Off the top of my head, I can't think which trick you are referring to. What springs to mind is that it could be either the use of the mystery potion (which is signposted) or the key (which is suggested if you go one way but does need some out of the box thinking). Neither requires you to kill a weak, innocent man for no reason other than the author is an idiot and then lose 3 LUCK for doing so.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 1, 2021 4:36:47 GMT
I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks Count for taking the considerable time to provide commentary on every book, it was an enormously fun read. It was pretty clear from fairly early on that your rankings of the many of the books fell quite a bit outside of mainstream opinion, so it was refreshing to hear a different take on some of the books that I (incorrectly) thought were pretty much universally admired, as well as seeing some love for some of the books that don't normally get much of it! Your scathing remarks on the titles towards the bottom of the list were very funny (even if I didn't always agree with your harshness some of the time!), but as we got towards the top of the list your enthusiasm for your favourite books in the series shone through with some detailed and really well considered reviews (especially the top 2 there, so I'll forgive the long wait ). Cheers! I completely agree with you here. While it is interesting to see an aggregated view of peoples' likes in the books, the individual view is more valuable because it reflects the quirks and personal reactions that are most important. I quite like seeing Luke Sharp books get a bit of love, for example (for some weird reason, Daggers of Darkness is one of a very few FF books still sitting on my shelves).
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 1, 2021 6:15:45 GMT
Which is why I got annoyed at someone earlier who swooped in to make a false accusation based on a comment I made about an author and then they subsequently refused to engage in any kind of conversation, instead sticking to that assumption. Hang on a second: is that me? I "subsequently refused to engage in any kind of conversation" based on my understanding of the following reaction by you: "I'd much rather not have any further discussion about it in this thread please" which I took as a quite reasonable request to not have the thread derailed into an argument. It also did not appear that you or anyone else was particularly interested in discussing the issue, so I did not start it up in another thread. How is that "refusing to engage in any kind of conversation"? I gave you the last word on the matter and throttled an argument in its early stages. This is the first time I've been slagged off for preventing an online spat. I also don't take kindly to being told that I am "sticking to an assumption" in a case where i) The accuser does not know what my assumptions are, and ii) I have said no more about the matter.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 1, 2021 8:23:50 GMT
I also think there's one really nasty trick to the book that's up there with the Bonekeeper in Crypt of the Sorcerer for punishing a player for not doing something that no player would ever think to do. Off the top of my head, I can't think which trick you are referring to. What springs to mind is that it could be either the use of the mystery potion (which is signposted) or the key (which is suggested if you go one way but does need some out of the box thinking). Neither requires you to kill a weak, innocent man for no reason other than the author is an idiot and then lose 3 LUCK for doing so. It's how you get the mystery potion in the first place. You have to tell the merchant that you don't want to see his wares. You're pretty unlikely to do this in your first playthrough and since he does sell several useful items, you're therefore unlikely to do so in subsequent playthroughs either. True, it's not immoral like the Bonekeeper incident and there's no Luck penalty, but I still think it's something a player would never think of doing.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 1, 2021 9:08:09 GMT
There are people complaining on the current FB "world cup" that "favourites" could be knocked out meaning something unexpected might just sneak in to the upper ranks for once - and its just an irrelevant set of polls! True, though it still bugs me more than it should how biased people seem to be towards the early books in that contest. Nostalgia is obviously a powerful sentiment, but I get the impression people are voting who either haven't played the later books or don't remember them all that well.
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Post by The Count on Feb 1, 2021 10:05:49 GMT
Which is why I got annoyed at someone earlier who swooped in to make a false accusation based on a comment I made about an author and then they subsequently refused to engage in any kind of conversation, instead sticking to that assumption. Hang on a second: is that me? No.
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Post by The Count on Feb 1, 2021 10:11:23 GMT
Off the top of my head, I can't think which trick you are referring to. What springs to mind is that it could be either the use of the mystery potion (which is signposted) or the key (which is suggested if you go one way but does need some out of the box thinking). Neither requires you to kill a weak, innocent man for no reason other than the author is an idiot and then lose 3 LUCK for doing so. It's how you get the mystery potion in the first place. You have to tell the merchant that you don't want to see his wares. You're pretty unlikely to do this in your first playthrough and since he does sell several useful items, you're therefore unlikely to do so in subsequent playthroughs either. True, it's not immoral like the Bonekeeper incident and there's no Luck penalty, but I still think it's something a player would never think of doing. I think its a valid option and plausible, although unlikely, that someone would do so.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 1, 2021 10:27:44 GMT
Hang on a second: is that me? No. In which case I apologise unreservedly. Good thing I did derail that argument!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 2, 2021 16:15:45 GMT
True, though it still bugs me more than it should how biased people seem to be towards the early books in that contest. Nostalgia is obviously a powerful sentiment, but I get the impression people are voting who either haven't played the later books or don't remember them all that well. The second half of your sentence could well be true and if so, skews the ratings. As for nostalgia's role, well, again you might be right. It's something I am aware of within myself when thinking about the books but to be honest I don't even try to analyse how much of a role it plays. Furthermore, it could be that books earlier in the series might get given a boost in the ratings because they are earlier in the series. They were blazing a trail, proving a concept, original ideas etc. and so get credit for that.
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