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Post by The Count on Feb 6, 2021 15:20:33 GMT
I have no issues with the gameplay of Black Vein Prophecy. The infamous luck test is slightly unfair as it comes very early on before you have the chance to lose a few points, and you can lose without realising why, however it is much fairer than books that need a Skill 12 to complete relying on you failing a Sk test or losing a fight against a Sk 6 opponent. Besides, in the context of the book, it makes sense in the same twisted, bizarre way the overall plot does - and the idea that those who cheat their way through the book cannot win is rather satisfying. I must have read and reread that book at the time and picked it apart until I worked out I'd been scuppered more or less from the start. Having now planned to reread it in the near to mid future I expect I'll cheat on that roll anyhow if it goes against me. Philosophical question: I'm driving from home to work in the morning but pick up a puncture just outside the house and end up delayed by an hour as i muck about putting the spare on. This delay means I avoid the fatal pile-up that happens on the motorway which, if I hadn't been delayed, I would have been involved in. Did I pass or fail a LUCK roll at some point in this little series of events? Was I lucky or unlucky picking up the flat tyre? And is this applicable to BVP? And am I making any sense at all? You failed one that put you on a different path. Had you passed, you would have had to pass another one AND a test of Skill to avoid an instant death. A bit like that crappy film Sliding Doors where the rubbish actress misses the tube (unlucky) leading to a better life than if she hadn't.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 6, 2021 15:28:35 GMT
Playing some books for my blog has led me to reevaluate them. Sometimes they turned out to be better than I'd thought, other times they didn't live up to the memories.
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Post by The Count on Feb 6, 2021 15:45:52 GMT
And rather more on-topic than my last comment... Yes, well the whole point of this thread is essentially about MY personal opinions, and those of those who wish to comment, discuss, debate, agree or disagree as they see fit. Which to me is far better than a collective agreement on what one is supposed to think (eg that DD is a masterpiece when it really isn't - the "community" dictates that this is the case and accepts no dissention, which is wrong)...... In groupthink, extreme viewpoints are only heard if the enforce the consensus, essentially making that viewpoint extremist as it refuses dissention, discussion, debate and disagreement. These are kids books at the end of the day... I do hope you don't feel there's an enforced consensus on these boards, or that I (championer of Deathtrap Dungeon that I am) inadvertently contributed to there being one. There's no place for orthodoxies and heresies round these parts (or more or less anywhere else actually) as far as I'm concerned. Down with groupthink! As you say, 'dissention, discussion, debate and disagreement' are the way forward. These methods can be used to form a consensus, but don't have to. I use them to help crystalise my own thoughts on these books, and of course in wider matters. I really couldn't care less what the group thinks, which is why I enjoy Sky Lord (which even I underrated!) & Chasms of Malice and loathe Sorcery! If group opinion mattered, my Top 5 would be Howl, DD, CoH, NoN and KoK. And that would be boring. If by 'the group' we mean the set of individuals here, then I do care what the group think. Not in order merely to 'fit in' [which is a powerful urge within many people and sometimes needs to be avoided] but rather to listen to and take seriously other people's opinions. You've got some thoughtful folk round here and what they say is worth knowing. I suspect that this is the same for you? Your not liking the Sorcery! books had me questioning myself why I liked them so much. Likewise you praising Chasms of Malice will get me revaluating Luke Sharp's books anew. So you've done me a favour, even if my opinions don't change. There are people complaining on the current FB "world cup" that "favourites" could be knocked out meaning something unexpected might just sneak in to the upper ranks for once - and its just an irrelevant set of polls! The tactical voting and gaming of the polls we saw in some of the earlier voting (scenting 'blood in the water' for certain books and attempting to force out others early doors) did amuse and bemuse me, I must say. There are a couple of members who seem to exhibit a "my opinion is the only valid opinion" approach (one or two of whom I may have disagreed with rather firmly in this or other threads) however you get them in any community or forum. It's much more prevalent in the FB group however. Even more obvious when you get into other fandom groups. It's one of the reasons I generally dislike the woefully misnamed social media as it is just an echo chamber. I like reading other peoples opinions about the books, and if they have a different opinion, I can as you said reconsider and learn from them. Tactical voting can be fun to watch - though annoying when it leads to one of your favourites being targeted for elimination.
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Post by petch on Feb 6, 2021 21:48:03 GMT
But I really loved waiting to see which book was next on your rankings. Hope someone else does something similar soon! Well since you've asked so nicely... I wrote up my own rankings list recently to help me with my scores for the rankings thread. Unlike the Count, I didn't devise any particular system for it, it was just a gut feel 'ok, I overall liked / admired / enjoyed x more than y, but less than z' type of thinking, but once I started doing it I obsessed over it more than was strictly necessary, rewriting it multiple times until I was finally happy with my order. I'm not even going to try anything as ambitious as the Count and offer a commentary for every book. I won't try to write a full review for any of them either - that's been done before many times and much more eloquently than I am capable of, and chiefly by the residents of this very forum. Rather, I'll just add a brief potted commentary for my own favourites (and least favourites), to try to get across a sense of why they're special to me, and just list the rest. I hope the Count will forgive me for posting my own list here...I'm not attempting to hijack your thread or steal your thunder, promise! I just happen to have my own list ready to go that I'm happy to share, and given the recent discussion here on the value of personal opinions vs group consensus, it seems as good a time and place to post it as any. Plus it gives me the opportunity to compare my list to the Count's own...on which note, here are a few bite-sized factoids before I start a-posting it: - The titles on which myself and the Count appear most in agreement over are Curse of the Mummy (which has the same ranking in each of our respective lists), Robot Commando (a difference of just 1 place), Magehunter & The Rings of Kether (each 2 places), and Rebel Planet, Beneath Nightmare Castle & Battleblade Warrior (3 places apiece). - Conversely, the titles for which we have the biggest differences of opinion are: Chasms of Malice (a whopping difference of 65 places), Night of the Necromancer (a nearly as gaping 59 places), Freeway Fighter (53), and The Crown of Kings & Temple of Terror (each 48). - My top 10 contains 2 titles which are also in the Count's top 10. In contrast, my top 10 appears to be more conventional / less individual (delete as applicable depending on your viewpoint!) in that it has 6 titles in common with the top 10 of the recent rankings thread. On a personal note, I was quite happy with that...as I mentioned on another thread a couple of days back, I've only got back into gamebooks again relatively recently so I did feel a bit vindicated by seeing that by and large I was enjoying ones that were widely held to be quality! - My bottom 10 also contains 2 titles in common with the Count's bottom 10, and 5 in common with the main ranking thread's bottom 10. My bottom 10 also contains 1 title from the Count's top 10...I wonder if anyone can guess which one! Oh, and a quick addendum before I forget...my list doesn't contain Clash of the Princes (haven't read them).
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Post by petch on Feb 6, 2021 23:11:44 GMT
1. Creature of Havoc Creature of Havoc is a book touched by magic. From the outset, you could tell just from the size and weight of the tome that Jackson was trying to push the boundaries of the series, at least in terms of content. All those extra words wouldn't mean much if Jackson didn't do something with them, though. But he does. Something very special. Obviously a lot of that extra length goes into the extended background section. Straight away you get a sense of Jackson's ambition for this project; whereas in previous books the Background had been a simple launchpad into the adventure, here there is some rich lore and worldbuilding. And then, at the end of it all, Jackson delivers a neat sidestep of expectations by sending you into a seemingly unrelated adventure. Due to the book's formidable difficulty, on your first several attempts you will likely die before you progress far enough to make any connection to the background, and perhaps start to wonder if there is indeed any link at all. But then, thanks to its phenomenally intelligent and intricate structure, with each footstep towards the solution, as you inch with every unsuccessful attempt slightly further on each time, the pieces slowly, slowly start to fall into place. When you finally crack the puzzle and your character's relationship to the big picture is at last revealed, it is a spine-tingling, hairs-on-the-back-of-your-neck-standing-up moment. I could enthuse at length about all of the things I think make CoH great, and special, but as I mentioned above I just wanted this to be a potted summary of my thoughts, so just to pick out a couple of things that stood out to me - firstly, the care and attention Jackson lavished on his false paths. I think this is one of the things that make this entry such a tough nut to crack...I was utterly convinced for a while that Thugruff's training camp must be on the path to victory as it was so detailed and well realised, and I went through it time and time again, sure that I was just picking a wrong option somewhere or perhaps that I had missed another hidden reference trigger, and it was a mixture of sheer exasperation and grudging admiration for me when I finally realised that Jackson had completely suckered me in. Secondly is Jackson's descriptive prowess on evidence here, especially as so much of the adventure takes place in bare stone corridors - being able to create such a wonderfully evocative atmosphere in such a stark setting is hard, yet time and again Jackson conjures up vivid, detailed paragraphs, making the most of every one of the already extended number of references in the book. If for whatever reason I was ever required to make the case that gamebooks deserve to be taken seriously as art (and for the record, I believe they do), then Creature of Havoc is the primary example I would cite. I can't think of a greater way to compliment it than that.
2. Moonrunner Stylistically, the horror movie inspirations for Moonrunner are writ large all over it, but structurally, it's actually more akin to something like Indiana Jones - it moves breathlessly from one gloriously executed set piece to another. Therein lies its brilliance for me: it grabs you by the arm, and doesn't let you pause for breath until it done, and it achieves that by Hand imbuing every single encounter here with personality and charm. He puts more effort into each singular encounter than some authors did into an entire book. I wanted to go back time and again to try every route to experience everything in it just because it was all so good. The breadth of imaginative, memorable characters is quite something: Argolis, the Corpse Master, Conrad the Maniac Guard, Kilmarney and Hogg...I could go on, but in fact trying to list the best bits is like trying to choose the best songs from your favourite album - you just end up writing out the tracklist.
3. House of Hell Strictly speaking, I'm not a huge fan of the 'One True Path' method of gamebook design - quite often it's a waste of the potential of the medium - but there are notable exceptions aplenty. Here, Jackson demonstrates brilliantly the potential of his pioneering puzzlebook style, and pairs it with a cracking story imbued with an enormously effective sense of creeping dread. Admittedly, there is some nostalgia at work here since as a child, this was one of the first titles I bought. I loved its atmosphere but it was too tough for me to complete, which only added to its mythos for my younger self. Going off on a tangent for a moment, as a youngster I also didn't realise that United States Steve Jackson and Original Gangsta Steve Jackson were two different people, which was especially confusing since as well as their vastly differing approaches to gamebook design, the relative difficulty of their books was in sharp contrast (I found US SJ's books easy peasy, but struggled with all of OG SJ's). This led me to believe that Steve Jackson was one person with a split personality, one like a kindly, benevolent uncle (like my uncle Jim), the other a spiteful misanthrope who hated and wanted to punish children (like my uncle Phil). Going off on a further tangent, I say that of my uncle Phil because of an incident in my early childhood when I had a sleepover at my cousin's house. In the morning, getting ready, I took a washcloth from their bathroom tidy which held a number of other washcloths and proceeded to wash my face with it, whereupon my cousin exclaimed in disgust 'Eeeeurgh! Dad does his bum with that one!' Thinking about this some time later, after I had spent a while with my head submerged in Dettol, I wondered why a man would store his bumflannel in the same place as facial washing materials, and came to the conclusion that his only possible motivation could be that he received gratification from the idea that one day an innocent child might wipe his own anal detritus all over their soft, soft face. Reading this back, I think it's probably prudent of me to clarify at this point that this is all simply a comparison that I fear I have rather overexplained in entirely unnecessary detail, and I am not in fact attempting to insinuate any arsecleft-based deviancy on the part of either Steve Jackson. I'm not. Oh yeah, I was supposed to be talking about House of Hell wasn't I. It's really, really good. I wish you could save that nurse, though. But you can't.
4. Deathtrap Dungeon There's a purity to the early Livingstone books that is difficult for later works to replicate, due to the way a series matures and develops. Bloodbeasthandler alluded to this slightly earlier in this thread...the early trailblazing books have a certain indefinable sense of adventure and excitement about them, and no book in the series encapsulates this better for me than Deathtrap Dungeon. Livingstone is often rightly criticised for the barebones lack of description (and arguably effort) in some of his later books, but here he pitches it just perfectly, giving enough detail to give a sense of rip-roaring adventure, but allowing the fertile imaginations of his young readers to fill in the blanks; the drips, the groans, the echoing roars. Yes, ultimately it's just a dungeon crawl. But to me it is the dungeon crawl against which all others should be judged.
5. Howl of the Werewolf Arguably, no other contributor's development as an author is as clear to trace from their submissions to the FF canon than Jonathan Green. What was very clear from the outset was that he could write; what he couldn't do was balance a gamebook. As time went on, he became more confident in developing his own style, and began to explore the possibilities of what he could do within the medium, whether that be designing a (very clever) system that gives a different experience with every playthrough (Stormslayer), or attempting something actually quite high-concept for young adult literature (Night of the Necromancer). Howl of the Werewolf represents, to me, the sweet spot between these two phases; it's a fairly traditional gothic horror themed gamebook in some ways, but blends Green's beautifully evocative writing (that admirably gives its young target audience enough credit that it isn't afraid to throw some quite dense and sophisticated prose at them) with a perfectly balanced adventure that's a joy to play. Green also abandons the prescriptive 'one true path' approach of his previous titles, which results in one of the biggest strengths of the book: while multiple paths to victory are available (which do lead to the 'proper' victory paragraph as opposed to an alternative partial victory one), tantalisingly included is the completist's victory route, which involves collecting all of the silver daggers and the reward for which is a fuller understanding of the nature and cause of Lupravia's curse. It's a very clever idea and implemented so well, which only adds more depth and replayability to an already exceptional gamebook.
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Post by petch on Feb 6, 2021 23:28:17 GMT
6. Night of the Necromancer 7. Night Dragon 8. Legend of the Shadow Warriors 9. City of Thieves 10. Phantoms of Fear*
* I thought I might have been the only one to have Phantoms in their top 10, so was very pleased to find that someone else likes it even more than I do. Also, its placement here puts Robin Waterfield in the august company of mssrs. Jackson and Livingstone as the third author to have their contributions to the series feature in both my top and bottom 10.
11. Talisman of Death 12. Vault of the Vampire 13. Portal of Evil 14. Slaves of the Abyss 15. Sword of the Samurai 16. Siege of Sardath 17. Magehunter 18. Stormslayer 19. Demons of the Deep 20. Spectral Stalkers 21. Freeway Fighter 22. Master of Chaos 23. The Crown of Kings 24. The Riddling Reaver 25. Seas of Blood 26. The Citadel of Chaos 27. Bloodbones 28. The Crimson Tide 29. Daggers of Darkness 30. Dead of Night 31. Island of the Lizard King 32. The Rings of Kether 33. Rebel Planet 34. Stealer of Souls 35. Knights of Doom 36. Tower of Destruction 37. Spellbreaker 38. Crypt of the Sorceror 39. Black Vein Prophecy 40. The Seven Serpents 41. Beneath Nightmare Castle 42. Appointment with F.E.A.R 43. The Shamutanti Hills 44. The Keep of the Lich-Lord 45. Scorpion Swamp 46. Khare: Cityport of Traps 47. Island of the Undead 48. Assassins of Allansia 49. Midnight Rogue 50. Legend of Zagor 51. The Warlock of Firetop Mountain 52. Fangs of Fury 53. Robot Commando 54. Trial of Champions 55. Caverns of the Snow Witch 56. Battleblade Warrior 57. Curse of the Mummy 58. The Port of Peril 59. Revenge of the Vampire 60. Crystal of Storms 61. Sky Lord 62. The Gates of Death 63. Masks of Mayhem 64. Fighting Fantasy: The Introductory Role Playing Game 65. Blood of the Zombies 66. Armies of Death 67. The Forest of Doom 68. Temple of Terror 69. Return to Firetop Mountain 70. Space Assassin 71. Deathmoor 72. Chasms of Malice 73. Star Strider
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Post by petch on Feb 6, 2021 23:47:38 GMT
74. Eye of the Dragon I'm only going to comment on my bottom 2 here for a couple of reasons: partly because I'm not capable of matching the Count's hilariously vitriolic diatribes against his least favourite entries, but also because I'm basically a big soft git and a big fan of the series, even the rubbish ones, so I don't actually want to say anything mean about most of them (I say, about to be very mean about the bottom 2!). Basically everything above here has at least something about it I like, or at the very least I hold an affection for something about it. The bottom 2 are the only ones that I can truly say that I actually dislike and both for pretty much the same reason: that of lack of authorial effort. Eye of the Dragon is, to me, a mishmash of disparate, leftover, sometimes barely even half thought out ideas crudely connected together by descriptionless corridors and doors, in an illogical setting, under an absurd premise, and is, all things considered, an insult of a gamebook.
75. Starship Traveller Steve Jackson is a very fine writer, which makes the shortcomings of Starship Traveller even more frustrating. It couldn't be more apparent that this is an unfinished project, whether it is because of the vastly reduced number of paragraphs, the fact that many of the planets you can visit are essentially barren rocks, or the lack of gameplay on the path to victory (and the fact that you have to roll up a whole crew's stats prior to starting the adventure clearly indicates that this was not Jackson's original intention, and the usual meticulous planning that typically characterises his work is entirely absent here). I don't know whether the half finished draft that ended up being published under the pretense of a completed work was as a result of an impending deadline, of trying to spin too many plates all at once, or of simply falling out of love with the project (or a combination of all of the above), but whatever the reason, if a work's own author manifestly doesn't care about it, then why should we?
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 7, 2021 2:46:14 GMT
You failed one that put you on a different path. Had you passed, you would have had to pass another one AND a test of Skill to avoid an instant death. A bit like that crappy film Sliding Doors where the rubbish actress misses the tube (unlucky) leading to a better life than if she hadn't. YOU are Gwyneth Paltrow. Will you use your magical powers to purge the despotic stain of your family dynasty, or will you rip people off by selling candles that smell of your vagina?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 7, 2021 10:10:52 GMT
Going off on a further tangent, I say that of my uncle Phil because of an incident in my early childhood when I had a sleepover at my cousin's house. In the morning, getting ready, I took a washcloth from their bathroom tidy which held a number of other washcloths and proceeded to wash my face with it, whereupon my cousin exclaimed in disgust 'Eeeeurgh! Dad does his bum with that one!' Thinking about this some time later, after I had spent a while with my head submerged in Dettol, I wondered why a man would store his bumflannel in the same place as facial washing materials, and came to the conclusion that his only possible motivation could be that he received gratification from the idea that one day an innocent child might wipe his own anal detritus all over their soft, soft face. Reading this back, I think it's probably prudent of me to clarify at this point that this is all simply a comparison that I fear I have rather overexplained in entirely unnecessary detail, and I am not in fact attempting to insinuate any arsecleft-based deviancy on the part of either Steve Jackson. I'm not. This made me chuckle like a buffoon. And a well-justified Top 5 to boot.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 7, 2021 11:50:51 GMT
1. Creature of Havoc [....] firstly, the care and attention Jackson lavished on his false paths. I think this is one of the things that make this entry such a tough nut to crack...I was utterly convinced for a while that Thugruff's training camp must be on the path to victory as it was so detailed and well realised, and I went through it time and time again, sure that I was just picking a wrong option somewhere or perhaps that I had missed another hidden reference trigger, and it was a mixture of sheer exasperation and grudging admiration for me when I finally realised that Jackson had completely suckered me in. [...] Same with House of Hell. Whereas some authors might not put so much effort when detailing routes other than 'the one true path', this isn't the case with him. I sometimes wonder if he writes the gamebook out as if any of the various strands could be the path to victory and then, once they are written, he only then decides on the right path. I don't know. If there's another FF Fest which I go to, I'll ask him.
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Post by petch on Feb 7, 2021 12:24:40 GMT
You failed one that put you on a different path. Had you passed, you would have had to pass another one AND a test of Skill to avoid an instant death. A bit like that crappy film Sliding Doors where the rubbish actress misses the tube (unlucky) leading to a better life than if she hadn't. YOU are Gwyneth Paltrow. Will you use your magical powers to purge the despotic stain of your family dynasty, or will you rip people off by selling candles that smell of your vagina? I just tried pitching this to a publisher, but they told me me they'd like to consciously uncouple from the concept.
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Post by The Count on Feb 15, 2021 14:43:55 GMT
74. Eye of the Dragon I'm only going to comment on my bottom 2 here for a couple of reasons: partly because I'm not capable of matching the Count's hilariously vitriolic diatribes against his least favourite entries, but also because I'm basically a big soft git and a big fan of the series, even the rubbish ones, so I don't actually want to say anything mean about most of them (I say, about to be very mean about the bottom 2!). Basically everything above here has at least something about it I like, or at the very least I hold an affection for something about it. The bottom 2 are the only ones that I can truly say that I actually dislike and both for pretty much the same reason: that of lack of authorial effort. Eye of the Dragon is, to me, a mishmash of disparate, leftover, sometimes barely even half thought out ideas crudely connected together by descriptionless corridors and doors, in an illogical setting, under an absurd premise, and is, all things considered, an insult of a gamebook. 75. Starship Traveller Steve Jackson is a very fine writer, which makes the shortcomings of Starship Traveller even more frustrating. It couldn't be more apparent that this is an unfinished project, whether it is because of the vastly reduced number of paragraphs, the fact that many of the planets you can visit are essentially barren rocks, or the lack of gameplay on the path to victory (and the fact that you have to roll up a whole crew's stats prior to starting the adventure clearly indicates that this was not Jackson's original intention, and the usual meticulous planning that typically characterises his work is entirely absent here). I don't know whether the half finished draft that ended up being published under the pretense of a completed work was as a result of an impending deadline, of trying to spin too many plates all at once, or of simply falling out of love with the project (or a combination of all of the above), but whatever the reason, if a work's own author manifestly doesn't care about it, then why should we? Eye was definitely a cheap, lazy cash in. I believe the story behind Starship Traveller was he got bored writing it, gave up and slapped on an ending as there was a deadline. And it shows.
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Post by The Count on Feb 15, 2021 15:13:59 GMT
1. Creature of Havoc I could enthuse at length about all of the things I think make CoH great, and special, but as I mentioned above I just wanted this to be a potted summary of my thoughts, so just to pick out a couple of things that stood out to me - firstly, the care and attention Jackson lavished on his false paths. I think this is one of the things that make this entry such a tough nut to crack...I was utterly convinced for a while that Thugruff's training camp must be on the path to victory as it was so detailed and well realised, and I went through it time and time again, sure that I was just picking a wrong option somewhere or perhaps that I had missed another hidden reference trigger, and it was a mixture of sheer exasperation and grudging admiration for me when I finally realised that Jackson had completely suckered me in. I like your review of this even though I'm nowhere near as enthusiastic for the book, and I agree for the most part about the false paths which is evident here and in House of Hell. However, In CoH I feel it is too obvious that you need to help Grog to proceed.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 15, 2021 17:06:05 GMT
However, In CoH I feel it is too obvious that you need to help Grog to proceed. Not to me it wasn't, I sided with the villager until multiple playthroughs convinced me otherwise. And it turns out he was right to be annoyed since Grog had eaten his dog! He's a bit of a villain is Grog.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 15, 2021 18:20:05 GMT
However, In CoH I feel it is too obvious that you need to help Grog to proceed. Not to me it wasn't, I sided with the villager until multiple playthroughs convinced me otherwise. And it turns out he was right to be annoyed since Grog had eaten his dog! He's a bit of a villain is Grog. I don't think I ever considered helping the villager - Grog looked very much the underdog in that situation. Plus he's a fellow monster with a penchant for eating things he probably shouldn't.
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Post by tyrion on Feb 15, 2021 21:15:29 GMT
However, In CoH I feel it is too obvious that you need to help Grog to proceed. Not to me it wasn't, I sided with the villager until multiple playthroughs convinced me otherwise. And it turns out he was right to be annoyed since Grog had eaten his dog! I love the line where Grog admits he could have killed it first.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 15, 2021 22:34:02 GMT
Not to me it wasn't, I sided with the villager until multiple playthroughs convinced me otherwise. And it turns out he was right to be annoyed since Grog had eaten his dog! He's a bit of a villain is Grog. I don't think I ever considered helping the villager - Grog looked very much the underdog in that situation. Plus he's a fellow monster with a penchant for eating things he probably shouldn't. I'm aware of the irony that by that point of the gamebook I was playing a character who had (inadvertently) eaten some of friends and colleagues.
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Post by The Count on Feb 19, 2021 4:03:37 GMT
4. Deathtrap Dungeon There's a purity to the early Livingstone books that is difficult for later works to replicate, due to the way a series matures and develops. Bloodbeasthandler alluded to this slightly earlier in this thread...the early trailblazing books have a certain indefinable sense of adventure and excitement about them, and no book in the series encapsulates this better for me than Deathtrap Dungeon. Livingstone is often rightly criticised for the barebones lack of description (and arguably effort) in some of his later books, but here he pitches it just perfectly, giving enough detail to give a sense of rip-roaring adventure, but allowing the fertile imaginations of his young readers to fill in the blanks; the drips, the groans, the echoing roars. Yes, ultimately it's just a dungeon crawl. But to me it is the dungeon crawl against which all others should be judged. Even when younger, I found his efforts to be rather slapdash though there are moments when DD does get the imagination going: the Pit Fiend, the pipe and that bit where the first time you read it you don't realise you have gone the wrong way (Topaz - stairs after the Mirror Demon). Admittedly, these days part of my boredom with it comes from knowing 90% of the true path off by heart despite this not being one I would read frequently. Part comes with frequently failing the luck roll to use the bone charm meaning an additional penalty for collecting a "vital" item - similar to the penalty for picking up the warhammer in CotSW. I found Trial fired my imagination a lot more, maybe due to it containing some contradictions such as the new dungeon having long boarded up and dusty chambers, and encounters such as the Witch, Liche Queen and Twin Headed Dog being rather more imaginative than: here is a human in a den of monsters, here are some goblins, here is a slide - weeeee! Same for Temple and Return, and even Crypt, though these are more descriptive. I sometimes wonder if those who enjoy DD do so because it was the first "hard" book in the series and it came early enough where its blandness could be ignored due to youth or excitement at it being a new book - I know DD was one I read reasonably early on after discovering FF, but it might have been after I read Trial which I read repeatedly in any case - as your sentiment of DD being the dungeon crawl is one I'd be more tempted to apply to ToT, Trial or Return.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 19, 2021 10:37:22 GMT
I sometimes wonder if those who enjoy DD do so because it was the first "hard" book in the series and it came early enough where its blandness could be ignored due to youth or excitement at it being a new book Not in my case. DD was an earlyish book for me, but not one of the first and, like you, I played Trial first. I used to prefer Trial, but I think DD is the better book these days. There are more rivals and they make a greater impact on proceedings, it is less linear and it's not quite so unfair. Plus the illustrations are much better. And the mastermind game at the end is much more inventive and fun than sorting rings into groups of three. As for the atmosphere, I think Ian's writing is pretty solid throughout. He's not the best FF writer, but I'd say he's on the high side of average and DD is one of his better efforts. I think though the greatest thing about DD is the concept - a lethal fantasy gameshow, what's not to love?
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Post by The Count on Feb 19, 2021 15:02:52 GMT
I sometimes wonder if those who enjoy DD do so because it was the first "hard" book in the series and it came early enough where its blandness could be ignored due to youth or excitement at it being a new book Not in my case. DD was an earlyish book for me, but not one of the first and, like you, I played Trial first. I used to prefer Trial, but I think DD is the better book these days. There are more rivals and they make a greater impact on proceedings, it is less linear and it's not quite so unfair. Plus the illustrations are much better. And the mastermind game at the end is much more inventive and fun than sorting rings into groups of three. As for the atmosphere, I think Ian's writing is pretty solid throughout. He's not the best FF writer, but I'd say he's on the high side of average and DD is one of his better efforts. I think though the greatest thing about DD is the concept - a lethal fantasy gameshow, what's not to love? Agreed, it is a great concept
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Post by petch on Feb 19, 2021 18:23:47 GMT
I sometimes wonder if those who enjoy DD do so because it was the first "hard" book in the series and it came early enough where its blandness could be ignored due to youth or excitement at it being a new book - I know DD was one I read reasonably early on after discovering FF, but it might have been after I read Trial which I read repeatedly in any case - as your sentiment of DD being the dungeon crawl is one I'd be more tempted to apply to ToT, Trial or Return. There might be an element of truth to that, but it's more a law of diminishing returns thing for me. Deathtrap established a winning template (and, as Kieran says, tied it to a brilliant concept) which Livingstone would go on to reuse - multiple times - with less successful results. So while Deathtrap felt exciting and vibrant, some of his subsequent stuff felt more stale, formulaic. But that's just like, my opinion, man.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 20, 2021 12:42:57 GMT
I don't know if Ian intended this to be the case or not, but the first 'Act' of Trial of Champions (gladiatorial style tests of endurance, agility, and fighting ability) if played honestly will weed out those crazy enough to attempt the new Deathtrap Dungeon with a low SKILL character.
Does anyone here NOT fudge the rolls when playing any of his books?
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Post by The Count on Feb 20, 2021 15:00:55 GMT
I don't know if Ian intended this to be the case or not, but the first 'Act' of Trial of Champions (gladiatorial style tests of endurance, agility, and fighting ability) if played honestly will weed out those crazy enough to attempt the new Deathtrap Dungeon with a low SKILL character. I like to think this was intentional, though his other books suggest otherwise. Does anyone here NOT fudge the rolls when playing any of his books? When younger, yes. Now, no. I don't see the point especially when I know some of the routes well enough to avoid penalties. Though the only time I managed to "complete" Crypt, I didn't bother rolling any dice and read through it following the solution.
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Post by tyrion on Feb 20, 2021 18:39:09 GMT
I don't know if Ian intended this to be the case or not, but the first 'Act' of Trial of Champions (gladiatorial style tests of endurance, agility, and fighting ability) if played honestly will weed out those crazy enough to attempt the new Deathtrap Dungeon with a low SKILL character. Does anyone here NOT fudge the rolls when playing any of his books? Honestly, no. Except for the bit at the beginning where you roll your stats, a character with a skill less than 11 is toast and might as well be rerolled. A while ago I rolled skill 11, stamina 17, luck 10 character, which while having high skill, is statistically average (i.e. I rolled a total of 14 on four dice). I will see how far he gets through some Livingstone books.
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Post by petch on Feb 20, 2021 18:45:46 GMT
Does anyone here NOT fudge the rolls when playing any of his books? From memory: Nope: Warlock, Forest of Doom, City of Thieves, Port of Peril, Assassins of Allansia Only for rolling my stats: Deathtrap Dungeon, Caverns of the Snow Witch, Temple of Terror, Freeway Fighter, Armies of Death Yes: Trial of Champions, Return to Firetop Mountain, Eye of the Dragon Hell yes: Crypt of the Sorceror Hell yes and also massively bended the rules due to necessity: Blood of the Zombies I'd usually try and beat a book fairly, but if it became apparent high stats were necessary to beat it, I'd usually fudge my starting stats by counting 1-2 as a 4, 3-4 as a 5 and 5-6 as a 6. If I still couldn't beat it even by cheating my stats, I'd move on to full-fledged fudging with my method of choice being rolling one die first, and if it came up with an undesirable result, I'd roll the other die to knock the first one. And even then sometimes I wouldn't accept the result: I'd say 'Oh that roll didn't count, I dropped them.' And I'd actually say that out loud, even though I was lying to no one except myself.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 20, 2021 19:23:46 GMT
Does anyone here NOT fudge the rolls when playing any of his books? From memory: If I still couldn't beat it even by cheating my stats, I'd move on to full-fledged fudging with my method of choice being rolling one die first, and if it came up with an undesirable result, I'd roll the other die to knock the first one. And even then sometimes I wouldn't accept the result: I'd say 'Oh that roll didn't count, I dropped them.' And I'd actually say that out loud, even though I was lying to no one except myself. I just want you to know you were and are not alone in doing precisely these things.
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Post by petch on Feb 20, 2021 19:33:10 GMT
From memory: If I still couldn't beat it even by cheating my stats, I'd move on to full-fledged fudging with my method of choice being rolling one die first, and if it came up with an undesirable result, I'd roll the other die to knock the first one. And even then sometimes I wouldn't accept the result: I'd say 'Oh that roll didn't count, I dropped them.' And I'd actually say that out loud, even though I was lying to no one except myself. I just want you to know you were and are not alone in doing precisely these things. I don't think I've actually ever admitted that to anyone before, so that's oddly comforting to know!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 20, 2021 19:43:07 GMT
And even then sometimes I wouldn't accept the result: I'd say 'Oh that roll didn't count, I dropped them.' And I'd actually say that out loud, even though I was lying to no one except myself. Oh my God, I thought I was the only one
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Post by The Count on Feb 21, 2021 3:29:43 GMT
I sometimes wonder if those who enjoy DD do so because it was the first "hard" book in the series and it came early enough where its blandness could be ignored due to youth or excitement at it being a new book - I know DD was one I read reasonably early on after discovering FF, but it might have been after I read Trial which I read repeatedly in any case - as your sentiment of DD being the dungeon crawl is one I'd be more tempted to apply to ToT, Trial or Return. There might be an element of truth to that, but it's more a law of diminishing returns thing for me. Deathtrap established a winning template (and, as Kieran says, tied it to a brilliant concept) which Livingstone would go on to reuse - multiple times - with less successful results. So while Deathtrap felt exciting and vibrant, some of his subsequent stuff felt more stale, formulaic. But that's just like, my opinion, man. Technically it's the same template used in Warlock
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Post by petch on Feb 21, 2021 8:27:23 GMT
And even then sometimes I wouldn't accept the result: I'd say 'Oh that roll didn't count, I dropped them.' And I'd actually say that out loud, even though I was lying to no one except myself. Oh my God, I thought I was the only one Haha! This is proper catharsis, at last knowing I'm not alone. I'm not really sure why I felt the need to say it...I think I used to imagine a spectral Ian looking over my shoulder, folding his arms and tutting every time I did it. Of course, since I read somewhere on here that he's said in an interview that he expects people to cheat, I don't feel so bad about it any more! True. It's my favourite refinement of that template, I guess.
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