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Post by The Count on Feb 23, 2021 1:42:27 GMT
Top 4 on FB: City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon, House of Hell and Forest of Doom - nostalgia votes, especially for the last one...
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 23, 2021 8:05:22 GMT
Top 4 on FB: City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon, House of Hell and Forest of Doom - nostalgia votes, especially for the last one... Forest beating Creature of Havoc in the quarter finals was a bit of a surprise certainly.
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Post by tyrion on Feb 23, 2021 11:02:31 GMT
Top 4 on FB: City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon, House of Hell and Forest of Doom - nostalgia votes, especially for the last one... Forest beating Creature of Havoc in the quarter finals was a bit of a surprise certainly. I wonder why that was. I know nostalgia will account for a lot of in these sorts of things. Maybe simplicity of forest counted for a lot of the votes? Certainly simpler than creature. Mind you, you can't get much simpler than a piece of paper and the random encounter table from the DMG that is forest of doom. And if somebody has never completed creature, they will probably not like it as much. Although I did find CoH easier than house of hell, so what do I know. Not really surprised at the top two though.
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Post by The Count on Feb 23, 2021 22:30:37 GMT
I wonder if its a combination of nostalgia from long term fans and newer fans only being exposed to these older titles republished by Wizard and Scholastic, and the new titles which are mostly terrible.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 24, 2021 19:47:48 GMT
I’ve a feeling a lot of those who voted probably only read the books as kids and then only books 1 through 18 (the first four years of the range). Those who started reading in 1982 would have considered themselves ‘too old/cool’ in 1986 to still be reading them. That’s why post-18 titles rarely get the votes.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 24, 2021 21:31:53 GMT
I really do wish we had access to the sales figures. We know that a few of them reached the top 10 in the Times Children's Bestsellers and Philippa Dickinson remembers that in their heyday the first printings of these books were at about 80,000 copies each. I think gamebooks were still on an upward trajectory in 86, going by the fact that 6 titles were released in 86, six in 87, and another 6 in 88. Even then they were sharing the market with Lone Wolf, Way of the Tiger (1985-87) and others.
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Post by The Count on Feb 25, 2021 1:40:11 GMT
I’ve a feeling a lot of those who voted probably only read the books as kids and then only books 1 through 18 (the first four years of the range). Those who started reading in 1982 would have considered themselves ‘too old/cool’ in 1986 to still be reading them. That’s why post-18 titles rarely get the votes. I think there is some truth to that. I started reading FF around 1987 and by 1993-1994, I was the only one my age still reading them, and my friends who were really into RPGs etc abandoned them after Clash of the Princes and Riddling Reaver did not go down well leading to some massive arguments. Though I didn't have a problem with continuing to read FF, especially as they started being aimed at more mature readers. I think that might be reflected in the fact that I lean towards the books from 21-50, the 40s especially, while I generally dislike Sorcery!* and many of the books between 1-20. *Sorcery! is a terrible storyline that ends on a whimper. Much like GoT S8 undid all the good character and world building that occurred in the preceding seasons. Except GoT was actually good to start with.
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Post by The Count on Feb 25, 2021 2:01:34 GMT
I really do wish we had access to the sales figures. We know that a few of them reached the top 10 in the Times Children's Bestsellers and Philippa Dickinson remembers that in their heyday the first printings of these books were at about 80,000 copies each. I think gamebooks were still on an upward trajectory in 86, going by the fact that 6 titles were released in 86, six in 87, and another 6 in 88. Even then they were sharing the market with Lone Wolf, Way of the Tiger (1985-87) and others. It would be very interesting to see the exact figures, though I suspect they will never be revealed. We know they underwent a sharp decline in 1989-1991 and while they were still hitting figures that would be a massive success for any other range, the publishers were caught between wanting to revamp the range and getting rid of it altogether, hence Return originally going to be the last book, then another 10 being commissioned when it performed better than expected. The older books were still being republished as late as 1992-1993, possibly just the biggest sellers though such as DD (16th printing in 1990) and Warlock (33rd printing in 1993). I remember reading somewhere that DD was the biggest selling book, overtaking Warlock easily within a year or two despite fewer reprints, and in other places that a standard initial print run was 5,000 copies (particularly for 55-59). So while we could make an estimate, we will likely be wrong.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 25, 2021 9:18:10 GMT
Sorcery! is a terrible storyline that ends on a whimper. Much like GoT S8 undid all the good character and world building that occurred in the preceding seasons. Except GoT was actually good to start with. What would be your main issue with the story? It's pretty basic, but wouldn't that also be true of many (most?) of the other books?
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Post by The Count on Feb 27, 2021 2:49:03 GMT
Sorcery! is a terrible storyline that ends on a whimper. Much like GoT S8 undid all the good character and world building that occurred in the preceding seasons. Except GoT was actually good to start with. What would be your main issue with the story? It's pretty basic, but wouldn't that also be true of many (most?) of the other books? The premise is questionable and the plot is paper thin. The books don't transition between each other smoothly. Khare existing makes no sense if you need a spell to pass through it, and the reason for having to pass through it is nonsense (ooh pirates on the river). There is no real sense of geography, a trait normally found in Livingstone books. The Archmage is as threatening as a Scooby Doo villain that has been unmasked. And you go through being called the Analander which makes you sound like a pervert.
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Post by schlendrian on Feb 27, 2021 8:15:29 GMT
I find your last point very questionable. Real regions sometimes have stupid place names, I rather find it unrealistic when a fantasy land has just heroic sounding places. Let's take for example in Austria: Fucking, Edelschrott (noble garbage), Brechhausen (vomit house), I guess you could find similar examples for British places (Middlesex? Really?) But those people from there live normal lives and don't get constantly called out on those places and I dare say people living near Analand would be used to it too.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 27, 2021 10:24:38 GMT
And you go through being called the Analander which makes you sound like a pervert. I think that's just an unhappy coincidence. Pretty sure it's Anna-land, not Ainal-and.
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Post by stevendoig on Feb 27, 2021 10:48:46 GMT
Yep, up until it was pointed out recently I have never even noticed the 'anal' in the name.
But I am an innocent naive lad.
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Post by petch on Feb 27, 2021 11:28:36 GMT
I find your last point very questionable. Real regions sometimes have stupid place names, I rather find it unrealistic when a fantasy land has just heroic sounding places. Let's take for example in Austria: Fucking, Edelschrott (noble garbage), Brechhausen (vomit house), I guess you could find similar examples for British places (Middlesex? Really?) But those people from there live normal lives and don't get constantly called out on those places and I dare say people living near Analand would be used to it too. This is a very good point, to be fair. I'm sure there are a lot more real-world locations with suggestive-sounding names than there are place names like The Forbidden Caverns of Doom. I should know, I live just a stone's throw from Slutshole. Which I can assure you isn't nearly as exciting as it sounds.
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Post by The Count on Feb 27, 2021 16:15:20 GMT
I find your last point very questionable. Real regions sometimes have stupid place names, I rather find it unrealistic when a fantasy land has just heroic sounding places. Let's take for example in Austria: Fucking, Edelschrott (noble garbage), Brechhausen (vomit house), I guess you could find similar examples for British places (Middlesex? Really?) But those people from there live normal lives and don't get constantly called out on those places and I dare say people living near Analand would be used to it too. I wouldn't set a fantasy novel in Middlesex (even though no one bats an eyelid at this), or Sandy Balls, Eek, Dull, Rooty Hill, Tittybong... It doesn't have to be "heroic" sounding as this would equally take you out of the story, most of the place names in FF aren't particularly "heroic" sounding anyway, but equally it doesn't need to be a glaring entendre either. Khare for instance sounds like a Fantasy name, but also sounds like it has a real world basis.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 27, 2021 18:29:32 GMT
... but equally it doesn't need to be a glaring entendre either. I think, and others correct me if I'm wrong, that it's only glaring to your good self, Count! I think most people see the suffix -land at the end of a proper noun and immediately make the connection that it means "land of the [name of a people/name of a thing or description]" - Gotland, Netherlands, Angleland, Northumberland.... Ana land. Edit: And since we know that Kakhabad is named after someone Steve actually knew, if forced to I'd take a guess that Analand is named after an Anna or Anne, maybe even the one mentioned in the FF1 dedication.
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Post by petch on Feb 27, 2021 22:58:13 GMT
I don't really have anything more of value to add to the debate at hand, but this whole conversation has led me to wonder whether folk who live in Twatt or Bell End live their lives in the fear that something akin to nominative determinism may cause Russell Brand or Piers Morgan to move into the area.
Shudder.
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Post by The Count on Feb 28, 2021 1:43:48 GMT
I don't really have anything more of value to add to the debate at hand, but this whole conversation has led me to wonder whether folk who live in Twatt or Bell End live their lives in the fear that something akin to nominative determinism may cause Russell Brand or Piers Morgan to move into the area. Shudder Neither of them is self aware enough to do so. At the end of the day, how I feel about any of the FF books is irrelevant to how anyone else feels. Or at least it should be. I find Sorcery! to be meh! and no one trying to justify Analand will ever convince me otherwise as there are far too many faults throughout the series to excuse such a shitty (*titter*) name for a major area on the FF map (which was originally designed for children, and had recently accepted bum faces, poo smells and worse...)
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Post by The Count on Feb 28, 2021 1:57:24 GMT
... but equally it doesn't need to be a glaring entendre either. I think, and others correct me if I'm wrong, that it's only glaring to your good self, Count! I think most people see the suffix -land at the end of a proper noun and immediately make the connection that it means "land of the [name of a people/name of a thing or description]" - Gotland, Netherlands, Angleland, Northumberland.... Ana land. Edit: And since we know that Kakhabad is named after someone Steve actually knew, if forced to I'd take a guess that Analand is named after an Anna or Anne, maybe even the one mentioned in the FF1 dedication. Given this thread is essentially about ME, that is fine as far as I am concerned. The -sex suffix in Middlesex, Essex etc comes from the Saxon Seax (not - aeax as I incorrectly put) and noone bats an eyelid as there isn't a ridiculous story surrounding them. Anal-and however has a moronic tale about a supposed hero taking on a cartoon villain of the week, and the more you progress, the less of a threat the archmage becomes. It is just a crap story pretending to be on par with LOTR or the Drenai (sp) saga. Like most Jackson books, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting as he couldn't be arsed.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 28, 2021 3:58:40 GMT
I think, and others correct me if I'm wrong, that it's only glaring to your good self, Count! I think most people see the suffix -land at the end of a proper noun and immediately make the connection that it means "land of the [name of a people/name of a thing or description]" - Gotland, Netherlands, Angleland, Northumberland.... Ana land. Edit: And since we know that Kakhabad is named after someone Steve actually knew, if forced to I'd take a guess that Analand is named after an Anna or Anne, maybe even the one mentioned in the FF1 dedication. Given this thread is essentially about ME, that is fine as far as I am concerned. The -sex suffix in Middlesex, Essex etc comes from the Saxon - aeax and noone bats an eyelid as there isn't a ridiculous story surrounding them. Anal-and however has a moronic tale about a supposed hero taking on a cartoon villain of the week, and the more you progress, the less of a threat the archmage becomes. It is just a crap story pretending to be on par with LOTR or the Drenai (sp) saga. Like most Jackson books, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting as he couldn't be arsed. The story I heard was that Kakhabad and all the other names like that came from Steve's baby. Maybe this was less an accurate piece of reportage than just an expression of our opinion of his naming skills. I always understood the '-sex' in English region names to be derived directly from the old word for Saxon itself (Seax or something, it's a long time since I ran my 'England but the Normans lost Hastings' campaign, but did your finger slip from the 's' to the 'a'?). So they basically mean Middle Saxony, East Saxony, West Saxony, South Saxony etc. But I don't think it's true that no one bats an eyelid. Those who didn't grow up in proximity to them might well fnar fnar a little. But we are inured to stuff we grow up with. I was born between Boldmere and Wylde Green, both of which I now think are fantastic names that could be used in a fantasy story, but for most of my life they were as boring as it got!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 28, 2021 8:52:41 GMT
Given this thread is essentially about ME, that is fine as far as I am concerned. If you [and by 'you' I mean people in general, or 'one'] are the only one thinking something's glaring, or blatant, or clearly obvious... then maybe it isn't. That's all I'm saying. The -sex suffix in Middlesex, Essex etc comes from the Saxon - aeax and noone bats an eyelid as there isn't a ridiculous story surrounding them. That's it, the word 'Saxon' seems to come from the seax, the knife they were associated with. And the counties are named after the Middle Saxons, the East Saxons, the West Saxons. ... a supposed hero taking on a cartoon villain of the week Nothing 'supposed' about it. If someone did something like that in real life it would be heroic wouldn't it? In real life maybe it's like commandoes or SOE operatives from WW2 parachuting into occupied territories to get a mission done? 'Cartoon villain of the week' is an overused cliche best left to Scooby Doo or whatnot. I don't see it applying well here. If it applies here it applies to every gamebook ever written with an evil sorceror in it. ... Anal-and however has ... Right then...stop right there! It's not anal. It's just not. Nothing to do with arseholes at all. No more than the town of Scunthorpe is about... another body part.. which I'm not going to mention here. ... the more you progress, the less of a threat the archmage becomes. Aha! This is where the references to backsides is relevant, because this statement is perfectly arse about face. The first book, the Shamutanti Hills, is the easiest of the books and there's no threat from the Archmage. Book 2 is more deadly and more difficult but still there's nothing from the Archmage in it. Book 3 sees you under direct and indirect threat from the Archmage's creatures. And in Book 4 the dangers in the Mampang Fortress are quite a lot deadlier. That illusionary bridge outside the fortress, the miser who could give you a wrong password and get you killed, the sleepless ram, the Throben doors in general. And other stuff. These are all part of the defences of the Archmage himself. So he and his threats increase as the books progress. Like most Jackson books, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting as he couldn't be arsed. What 'heavy lifting'? I don't understand where that phrase comes into it. I'd say the only book where i feel SJ lost momentum and enthusiasm was Starship Traveller. It doesn't apply to any of the others. The Sorcery! series must have been quite a labour for him to do, not least trying to keep in mind what spell items the character had at each point. 'Can't be arsed' is just wrong, I'm afraid. Having said all this, I hear what you say about the artificiality of having to traverse Khare. Maybe SJ could have introduced the idea of an agent working for Analand who you had to meet in the city for help and further information?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Feb 28, 2021 16:04:41 GMT
To be honest it blows my mind that anyone can look at the word 'Analand' and not see 'anal'. Perhaps I have a very juvenile brain, but I can't believe it didn't get picked up on by most of FF's target age-range, (The aiming of Sorcery! slightly higher notwithstanding). Certainly if my experience of teaching teenagers about aldehydes (methanal, ethanal, propanal...) is anything to go by.
Grateful for people who can't see it though. Where would adverts for Su's anal bum party come from otherwise?
Since BBH has already mentioned the place, I'll say that Analand must surely fall foul of Titan's version of the Scunthorpe problem.
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Post by The Count on Feb 28, 2021 16:40:17 GMT
Given this thread is essentially about ME, that is fine as far as I am concerned. The -sex suffix in Middlesex, Essex etc comes from the Saxon - aeax and noone bats an eyelid as there isn't a ridiculous story surrounding them. Anal-and however has a moronic tale about a supposed hero taking on a cartoon villain of the week, and the more you progress, the less of a threat the archmage becomes. It is just a crap story pretending to be on par with LOTR or the Drenai (sp) saga. Like most Jackson books, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting as he couldn't be arsed. The story I heard was that Kakhabad and all the other names like that came from Steve's baby. Maybe this was less an accurate piece of reportage than just an expression of our opinion of his naming skills. I always understood the '-sex' in English region names to be derived directly from the old word for Saxon itself (Seax or something, it's a long time since I ran my 'England but the Normans lost Hastings' campaign, but did your finger slip from the 's' to the 'a'?). So they basically mean Middle Saxony, East Saxony, West Saxony, South Saxony etc. But I don't think it's true that no one bats an eyelid. Those who didn't grow up in proximity to them might well fnar fnar a little. But we are inured to stuff we grow up with. I was born between Boldmere and Wylde Green, both of which I now think are fantastic names that could be used in a fantasy story, but for most of my life they were as boring as it got! Yes, the aeax was a typo, should have been seax. Kakhabad does sound like something a baby might say, though it is not that bad as a fantasy place name. Boldmere would be a great feature in a fantasy book. Wylde Green sounds more like an 80s citadel paint colour.
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Post by vastariner on Feb 28, 2021 16:46:06 GMT
But I don't think it's true that no one bats an eyelid. Those who didn't grow up in proximity to them might well fnar fnar a little. But we are inured to stuff we grow up with. I was born between Boldmere and Wylde Green, both of which I now think are fantastic names that could be used in a fantasy story, but for most of my life they were as boring as it got! With a bit of tweaking, and sometimes just done straight out, lots of Brum place names would work quite well...
King's Standing King's Heath Four Oaks Derrit's End Shard's End (executed with broken glass, ouchie)
Coalshill Chad Vale and Castle Vale
Ecgba's Town Jewellery Quarter Lowe's Hells Tyburn Rotten Park Moor Green The High Gate One Hand's Worth
And, of course, Alum Rock. With the whole thing set in the Home of the Tribe of the Bear.
Neil Gaiman did something similar with Neverwhere, weaving new mythologies around London's placenames such as Baron's Court and Blackfriars.
As an aside...whatever happened to the North Saxons?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 28, 2021 17:18:45 GMT
As an aside...whatever happened to the North Saxons?
The Angles had their north and south counties - the north folk in Norfolk. Just up the road from Suffolk. From the look of this map of the heptarchy it looks like any potential Nossex (or No-sex, geddit?!) would have been in Mercia. Edit: And in case people don't know, Kakabadse [variant spelling Kakabadze] is a Georgian surname and for sure where SJ got the name from. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakabadze
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Post by The Count on Feb 28, 2021 17:45:17 GMT
Given this thread is essentially about ME, that is fine as far as I am concerned. If you [and by 'you' I mean people in general, or 'one'] are the only one thinking something's glaring, or blatant, or clearly obvious... then maybe it isn't. That's all I'm saying. I'm not the only one, just the most vocal about it. I could probably ignore it if the books were better as in RotV, I don't mind it. The -sex suffix in Middlesex, Essex etc comes from the Saxon - aeax and noone bats an eyelid as there isn't a ridiculous story surrounding them. That's it, the word 'Saxon' seems to come from the seax, the knife they were associated with. And the counties are named after the Middle Saxons, the East Saxons, the West Saxons. I spelt it wrong. Its one of those handy pub quiz pieces of trivia ... a supposed hero taking on a cartoon villain of the week Nothing 'supposed' about it. If someone did something like that in real life it would be heroic wouldn't it? In real life maybe it's like commandoes or SOE operatives from WW2 parachuting into occupied territories to get a mission done? 'Cartoon villain of the week' is an overused cliche best left to Scooby Doo or whatnot. I don't see it applying well here. If it applies here it applies to every gamebook ever written with an evil sorceror in it. CoK* undoes a lot of the heroism by having such a poor ending. And the sheer amount of spell components you need to lug around doesn't help as it makes it very difficult to stay immersed in the story. The Archmage never comes across as a genuine threat or dangerous opponent. Scooby Doo had better villains. The Hooded Claw was more menacing. Dick* Dastardly would have been a more deadly foe (and he would cheat). ... Anal-and however has ... Right then...stop right there! It's not anal. It's just not. Nothing to do with arseholes at all. No more than the town of Scunthorpe is about... another body part.. which I'm not going to mention here. Everyone has a good titter* at Scunthorpe Say it out loud, its anal-and, not annal-and. In some accents it sounds like there is a missing h... ... the more you progress, the less of a threat the archmage becomes. Aha! This is where the references to backsides is relevant, because this statement is perfectly arse about face. The first book, the Shamutanti Hills, is the easiest of the books and there's no threat from the Archmage. Book 2 is more deadly and more difficult but still there's nothing from the Archmage in it. Book 3 sees you under direct and indirect threat from the Archmage's creatures. And in Book 4 the dangers in the Mampang Fortress are quite a lot deadlier. That illusionary bridge outside the fortress, the miser who could give you a wrong password and get you killed, the sleepless ram, the Throben doors in general. And other stuff. These are all part of the defences of the Archmage himself. So he and his threats increase as the books progress. I disagree completely. In Book 1, the Archmage is made out to be a major threat. Book 2 ignores him. Book 3, his minions are dangerous - not him. Book 4 its the fortress and inhabitants who are deadly - not him. He is ridiculously easy to defeat, doesn't pose any threat to you at all and its a major anti climax. Like most Jackson books, you are supposed to do the heavy lifting as he couldn't be arsed. What 'heavy lifting'? I don't understand where that phrase comes into it. I'd say the only book where i feel SJ lost momentum and enthusiasm was Starship Traveller. It doesn't apply to any of the others. The Sorcery! series must have been quite a labour for him to do, not least trying to keep in mind what spell items the character had at each point. 'Can't be arsed' is just wrong, I'm afraid. Having said all this, I hear what you say about the artificiality of having to traverse Khare. Maybe SJ could have introduced the idea of an agent working for Analand who you had to meet in the city for help and further information? Most of his books have a good structure with hidden paths, descriptive sections, and imaginative encounters but he doesn't tie them together with a strong plot, and the endings are generally anti climactic. As Sorcery! is supposed to be a 4 part epic, it needs a strong story arc to tie it together, and it fails due to the archmage being so dull, dreary and easy to defeat, CoK* being rather bad and so many sections being wasted on resolving the excessive amount of spells and silly components required to use them. So you, the reader, have to do that heavy lifting instead. At risk of using a lazy comparison, Sorcery! is like watching Game of Thrones - so many good elements, well developed characters, plot threads and twists all tossed aside for a cringe inducing cameo by a rancid overrated ginger munter and an absolutely atrocious final season that disregards a good deal of what went before with poor writing and out of nowhere twists and character changes. So much like Starship Traveller, he couldn't be arsed making the concept work. A spell system like CoC* and a final encounter that demonstrated that the archmage was a serious threat that needed to be stopped would have worked wonders. As would a better name than Analand. Khare would have been a great book if it was a stand alone. *teeheehee
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 28, 2021 18:40:13 GMT
He is ridiculously easy to defeat, doesn't pose any threat to you at all and its a major anti climax. That's true if you look at the climax as just the fight with the netherworld demon. However, if you see the climax as beginning from your first meeting with Farren Whyde, then the Archmage tricks you into marching straight into prison and it's only by relying on a genie or using the most powerful and mysterious spell in the spellbook that you're able to escape and force him into a combat he had hoped to avoid by his duplicity. I see where you're coming from of course and I'm not trying to say you're "wrong", just pointing out why I and others may view the series differently. It would be boring if we all agreed after all!
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Post by vastariner on Feb 28, 2021 20:20:21 GMT
And you only defeat him because you go back to a point in time where you originally had no suspicions - so he would have seen no reason to think you any danger at all. It's only when you go straight to the attack that the Demon manifests properly. You have, effectively, cheated time, space, and fate, in order to take on the Demon.
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Post by stevendoig on Feb 28, 2021 20:25:47 GMT
I've always pronounced it ( an won't stop now) as Anna - land.
What aboot everyone else?
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Post by daredevil123 on Feb 28, 2021 21:27:23 GMT
I don't think it can be anything else.
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