Just 15!

[King Gillibran]

Right we are into the last 15 gamebooks.
This time we will be choosing our five least favourite gamebooks. IT CAN INCLUDE ONES YOU DONT HAVE, SO RARER GAMEBOOKS WILL SUFFER.
Get choosing.

[CharlesX]

I wonder why (admittedly early) voting is against Slaves Of The Abyss, even at this late stage.

1. Too much depends on whether or not you get Spitting Fly?

2. It isn't as descriptive and epic-feeling as some of the others here?

3. On a related point, the narrative isn't as 'oomphy' as those written by J & L and JG, who are masters by comparison?

Still don't think it should go, personally.

There again, I voted for Night Of The Necromancer, even though I think its really good, just because I don't think it's JG's best work.

IT CAN INCLUDE ONES YOU DONT HAVE, SO RARER GAMEBOOKS WILL SUFFER.

I wouldn't vote for a gamebook I didn't have\haven't read unless I'd read a convincing case it was really awful. Frankly I agree with whoever it was who said they'd (rather) turn down the chance to vote.

[kieran]

Jan 3, 2023 11:01:41 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder why (admittedly early) voting is against Slaves Of The Abyss, even at this late stage.

1. Too much depends on whether or not you get Spitting Fly?

2. It isn't as descriptive and epic-feeling as some of the others here?

3. On a related point, the narrative isn't as 'oomphy' as those written by J & L and JG, who are masters by comparison?

I actually think it's pretty epic and oomphy and the descriptive writing is up there with the series' best. I think the Spitting Fly thing is a bit nasty as you have to do something quite foolish to get it, with no indication that you've missed anything if you take the more sensible option. But my main reason for voting for it is I just don't like how the book's structured as I've bleated on here in the past. Not that it's a bad book by any means, but stiff competition here!

I also voted for:
The Seven Serpents
Night of the Necromancer
Dead of Night
Stormslayer

[King Gillibran]

Jan 3, 2023 11:01:41 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder why (admittedly early) voting is against Slaves Of The Abyss, even at this late stage.

1. Too much depends on whether or not you get Spitting Fly?

2. It isn't as descriptive and epic-feeling as some of the others here?

3. On a related point, the narrative isn't as 'oomphy' as those written by J & L and JG, who are masters by comparison?

Still don't think it should go, personally.

There again, I voted for Night Of The Necromancer, even though I think its really good, just because I don't think it's JG's best work.

IT CAN INCLUDE ONES YOU DONT HAVE, SO RARER GAMEBOOKS WILL SUFFER.

I wouldn't vote for a gamebook I didn't have\haven't read unless I'd read a convincing case it was really awful. Frankly I agree with whoever it was who said they'd (rather) turn down the chance to vote.

I don't own many of these but I have done most of them and some I do not like so that is sort of what I meant.

[hallucination]

Easier selection this time around, for me at least. Since 4 of the books I voted for last time stuck around, I went for them again, but adding City of Thieves. Yeah it’s a classic and the first two thirds is great, but a few things towards the end lessens the adventure I reckon (ingredient selection being one of them)

[hallucination]

Do folks have a particular beef with Stormslayer? Gunna be sad to see it go!

[King Gillibran]

I was grieved for both 40th anniversery books as well as for Crown of Kings. All were very sad.

[kieran]

Jan 4, 2023 4:15:46 GMT hallucination said:

Do folks have a particular beef with Stormslayer? Gunna be sad to see it go!

My only real issue with it is I hate Mt Pyre!

[sylas]

Nothing wrong with Stormslayer. It's an adventure full of references and Easter eggs to other books in the series but doing so makes it lack originality. It's great fun gameplay wise though.

[misomiso]

Shocked City of Thieves is disliked - it wasn't long ago this was considered the best Fighting Fantasy book ever!

[scouserob]

City of Thieves was first place in the first 20 books poll!
Now even Talisman of Death, that sneaked through in the play-offs is beating it.

It is interesting to see how the shift from voting for your favourites to your least favourites alters things.

[a moderator]

City has always been popular, but rarely 'best'. It wasn't in the top 10 in the Fantazine poll. It came 13th in this forum poll, only one person chose it as their favourite here, and it didn't even make it into the top 2 of the first 10 FF books in tyrion's series of polls summarised here.

Even among the subset of fandom that ranks Livingstonian meat-grinders above everything else, CoT tends to lag behind Deathtrap Dungeon.

[CharlesX]

Jan 5, 2023 11:55:18 GMT misomiso said:

Shocked City of Thieves is disliked - it wasn't long ago this was considered the best Fighting Fantasy book ever!

An FF that can break even with Siege Of Sardath cannot be seriously disliked. Treating IL works objectively rather than the butt of a joke as we often do, Deathtrap Dungeon has got to be the better of the two: better-designed, has more interesting monsters, better atmosphere, better description. Where City Of Thieves falls short isn't solely things like Nicodemus's absurd mix-up, Moon Dogs, and the city atmosphere (which it still does miles better than Shadow Of The Giants). I say it should take a leaf out of Tunnels and Trolls and be more brave, daring and out-there. Whether or not he's good at it Livingstone does tend to stick with old-school adventure formulas -

1. Go through dangerous place x.

2. Do you have items a-w? If not, game over.

3. Kill big bad(s) z.

As for Siege Of Sardath, an extremely well-written gamebook only one that is linear and not as heavy on action as Jonathan or other Keith. Apparently that is enough for it to be given a kicking.

   I guess the Istu cut-out thing might irritate pedants and purists, as well.

Edit in response to trilamaster: I strongly suspect we have a difference of opinion (probably an irreconcilable one) here, but I just don't like city adventures, even when they're done well as is totally the case with City Of Thieves. I think it's great if you think COT is in Ian's top 2, but I prefer Temple Of Terror or Island Of The Lizard King even if that puts me in the minority (truthfully, the jury seem to still be out).

   In more positive terms, I am a huge fan of Midnight Rogue, but there you are rarely given Ian-esque 'go-left or right without a clue which is the right way', you spend less time shopping, chatting to townspeople, or fighting low-skill enemies (while at the same time having very high skill enemies at the end ).

[a moderator]

Talking of pedants, that should be 'Istu', not 'Ishtra'.

[trialmaster]

I am also pretty shocked that COT is currently sitting in the bottom 5. I have to totally disagree with Charles X saying that the city atmosphere is a disappointing part of the book. It is the most vivid, atmospheric city adventure of them all in my opinion with lots of interesting encounters and plenty of replayability. If FF fans were asked to name a place in the world of FF I think the majority would choose Port Blacksand. It also has to be remembered it was one of the earliest books in the series. Definitely one of the classics of the series (along with Deathtrap Dungeon and Creature of Havoc).
I do agree that Siege of Sardath let itself down with the difficulty of its puzzles, particularly the ridiculous Istu one. Without the online solution I would never have been able to complete this one which can't be right! That is why I reluctantly put this as one of my bottom 5 as it was certainly well written

[a moderator]

Well, only the bottom 5 of the top 15. it's not as if people are suddenly ranking City alongside the likes of Starship Traveller, Sky Lord, Blood of the Zombies and The Gates of Death. 'Popular gamebook not quite as popular as even more popular gamebooks' isn't much of a scandal, really.

[CharlesX]

Gates Of Death not Gates Of Doom pedantically (yes, I probably wouldn't have written that if it weren't for your earlier correction). Unless, like Lord Valdemort, the gamebook is so bad you dare not say its correct title.

[petch]

Great recovery by Slaves of the Abyss...it was the least popular by some distance in the early voting, but has now quietly slipped out of the top five.

[adrius]

Jan 5, 2023 16:25:17 GMT petch said:

Great recovery by Slaves of the Abyss...it was the least popular by some distance in the early voting, but has now quietly slipped out of the top five.

It's still in the risk zone though, and would be ahead with 2-3 more votes. Could be that loyal fans that didn't vote for it were among the later voters.

Anyway, looks like Stormslayer is now the least favourite on the list. I did vote for it, for the story and final boss felt rather underwhelming when I played through it and the ending was rather simple to attain. Not sure about others' opinions?

[tyrion]

I voted for stormslayer. It is well designed but I don't think the dungeon sections are particularly well written. Mount pyre is atmospheric, but the mines are just that and I was disappointed that the howling plains resolved into another dungeon. Even the descriptions (you reach yet another junction...) seem to acknowledge this. I've just played through it again and to be honest I got a bit bored with random left/right decisions.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have started to think Stormslayer is the best book in the later entries. The replay value is enormous. The standard attributes and the gold(both at the beginning and acquired) means you need a strong knowledge of the encounters and need to be able to think to adapt your strategy play by play. This is worlds removed from the one true path problems often mentioned by others where the book become a rote exercise with dice rolls.

[CharlesX]

Tentatively suggest locking this poll - voting seems to have stopped, and at 38 voters it's only 1 voter down on top 20 poll (either because all these books are awesome, or because people don't have enough of 'em to want to vote). At over a week, it has had longer than the top 20.

[scouserob]

Could we have our 5 favourites again for the last 10?
Much more positive to be voting for the most fun/best books on the list rather than trying to pick apart and weigh up the most flawed. 

[pip]

Jan 10, 2023 13:16:37 GMT scouserob said:

Could we have our 5 favourites again for the last 10?
Much more positive to be voting for the most fun/best books on the list rather than trying to pick apart and weigh up the most flawed. 

It'd be interesting to see how different the results would be if we had to vote for our favourites in this one. 

A more foolproof way of voting accurately for the last 10 would be for everybody to give a ranking from 10 to 1 to each book. It would be more cumbersome to count the votes, for sure, but would be more accurate to find out how the community feels about each book, since you wouldn't be able to sit on the fence about any of them (with the option to give a null vote for the books you haven't read, I guess?).

[sleepyscholar]

Jan 10, 2023 17:49:33 GMT pip said:

Jan 10, 2023 13:16:37 GMT scouserob said:

Could we have our 5 favourites again for the last 10?
Much more positive to be voting for the most fun/best books on the list rather than trying to pick apart and weigh up the most flawed. 

It'd be interesting to see how different the results would be if we had to vote for our favourites in this one. 

A more foolproof way of voting accurately for the last 10 would be for everybody to give a ranking from 10 to 1 to each book. It would be more cumbersome to count the votes, for sure, but would be more accurate to find out how the community feels about each book, since you wouldn't be able to sit on the fence about any of them (with the option to give a null vote for the books you haven't read, I guess?).

I think you're right, though this method of voting was an interesting contrast with previous ones. I would hypothesise (and the hyper-perceptive may notice a smidgin of bias here) that it penalises more Marmite books, compared to people voting for books they like. It'll encourage 'safer' choices. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, of course.

[King Gillibran]

Poll locked. I will have you choosing your favourites again.