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Post by hynreck on Dec 9, 2015 16:26:15 GMT
It's funny you should mention him: Shun The Unbeliever was in fact the one who defeated Razaak.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Dec 20, 2015 17:23:36 GMT
Magical moments ... it's so hard to forget... those flies .. the poison running through my veins and death so close .. the blindness against the cave .. the old man to die ... the cruel murder of the guardian of bones ... the devil of the woods and his gaze of death... the griffin and the wild look of that woman .. that giant golem and his prodigious strength... ... The lake ... my God ... that lake... Yaztromo helpless on the floor .. Gargantis the Beast ... a vision of hell ... the rot nearby the crypt ... the stench of death ... rot .. and Razaak ... my God ... .. Razaak... the eyes of death.
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Post by offm on Jan 27, 2016 13:50:23 GMT
This is specially for vagsancho he will like it link
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jan 27, 2016 16:01:48 GMT
Everything seemed like a dream .. all I felt it all like a dream .. the trip in the mountains, the traveling through the woods, Symm, Borry, the old man in the barrel, Gargantis, and even Yaztromo ... all I felt it like a dream .. . whose the awakening to reality would only be with the appearance of Razaak.
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Post by deadshadowrunner on Jan 27, 2016 22:43:21 GMT
This is specially for vagsancho he will like it linkWhat's that? I can't seem to open it.
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Post by offm on Jan 28, 2016 10:49:49 GMT
it is a facebook link to a picture of razaak, i will upload to the net the link follows :
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Jan 28, 2016 11:36:31 GMT
He might be undying, but he hasn't aged brilliantly. He should think about getting work done.
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Post by offm on Mar 23, 2016 16:59:50 GMT
now i realised my post had the opposite effect
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 27, 2016 12:23:23 GMT
Taking off the level of dificulty, not an important factor for me, I see that nobody else here sees Crypt of the Sorcerer as his/her favorite book, and what is more unbelievable for me, not even one of the best, and I see that there are even some who say they do not like the book. I Respect differences, but i admit that it is something absolutely incomprehensible to me. Perfect book.
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Post by hynreck on May 27, 2016 12:29:09 GMT
Well, most people here don't understand you either, if that makes you feel better.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 27, 2016 12:43:03 GMT
As with most of Livingstone's books, I enjoyed the story, style and atmosphere of Crypt of the Sorcerer. It really gave me the sense I was on an epic adventure in a vast and complex world. But the level of difficulty is inexcusable. It's not really a level of difficulty, but a decision by the author to sell you a game that is impossible to win. In that sense, it's a breach of our shared understanding of a game or a gamebook. We don't expect someone to sell us a game that's unwinnable by design. I consider that a failure by Livingstone.
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Post by philsadler on May 27, 2016 13:27:55 GMT
I remember putting many hours into this as a youth, despite the difficulty and the silliness of the random instant deaths that killed you regardless of stats. I persevered though, right to the end. I was so disgusted about Razaak's stats (let alone his ridiculous special ability) that I recall searching the book in anger assuming that I'd missed a hidden option (no Internet back then). After scouring all 400 references I realised that it was by design. I was so angry and disgusted that I threw the book to one side and never went back.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 27, 2016 21:21:21 GMT
My god how i love this book. Every single bit. The quest is unbelieavable. A puzzle where every single piece joins together in perfection. When at the very endind i see the crypt, all my bones scream with the effort and tiredness of all that amazing quest. and Razaak is defineately more special than all the other rivals. Who the hell wants to know about "dificulty level"? Not I.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 28, 2016 14:10:47 GMT
My god how i love this book. Every single bit. The quest is unbelieavable. A puzzle where every single piece joins together in perfection. When at the very endind i see the crypt, all my bones scream with the effort and tiredness of all that amazing quest. and Razaak is defineately more special than all the other rivals. Who the hell wants to know about "dificulty level"? Not I. If I may be blunt then you are an idiot because you are ignoring two amazing inversions in FF. Livingstone started brilliantly and then degenerated into unplayable worthlessness. Green is an inversion of this as he started with unplayable worthlessness and then delivered mature masterpieces.
Your unwillingness to engage with this manifestly delivers your uncritical idolisation of the lamentable.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 28, 2016 17:29:02 GMT
Eh no need for name-calling, people value different things about the books. I personally don't rate Crypt all that highly but I like it better than some other more playable books.
I'm also not sure I agree that Ian's books degenerated into unplayable messes. Armies of Death and Return to Firetop Mountain are tough but far less so than Crypt and probably not as hard as earlier books like Deathtrap Dungeon and Caverns of the Snow Witch either.
As for Green's books, you're probably right in saying they got fairer but I find myself more fond of Spellbreaker than I am Night of the Necromancer. The former may require some rule bending where the latter doesn't, but there's a lot else to like about it in my opinion.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 28, 2016 22:21:43 GMT
Some FF gamebooks have strong storytelling, others have better gameplay. These two factors are what make a gamebook and having a high level in both makes the adventure epic. However, if one area should fail, the other must be brilliant to save it. Black Vein Prophecy did this correctly and so did Stormslayer and the two remain some of my favourite titles.
Crypt of the Sorcerer doesn't have terrible a story even if it's not entirely original, but it’s okay as the driving force behind the adventure. Playability-wise it's unfair and a complete mess; the main reason for fans hating on it so much. Having an all-powerful, two-dimensional bad guy thrown in at the end does not make the book awesome. If you were able to fight him on more even terms, perhaps. A minor do-over of the fights involved would have been welcome during its re-print and I doubt would have taken a lot of time (there are only 6 main changes that I can think of). It's inconceivable that the publishers would be unaware of this problem so the result just comes across as either lazy or dismissive.
Just to be clear, I don't hate Crypt of the Sorcerer. Some scenes and encounters are certainly memorable and creative: locating the Skeleton at the lake draws an eerie yet atmospheric picture that marks a milestone in your quest; the monstrous Gargantis whose power you discover is more than simple brawn; or the ride on the dwarven airship chased by a Red Dragon only to be rescued by a higher entity all display Livingstone's talent to weave an epic story.
With that in mind, it's a real shame that these encounters ultimately went to waste. The gameplay and many accounts of randomness make the adventure understandably unbearable for some, and with a little alteration it could have been so much more and earned far less hate.
5/10
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 28, 2016 22:43:06 GMT
As before you start with a generalisation and make it into a bullying straw man ie you make a generalisation which suits you that generates a conclusion you want. I was making one clear point. If you want to make an argument about every connection you do it and tell everyone on the board about it. Clearly I do not have insight into every connection.
As to my above post I gave a clear reason as to why I was being direct a la Champskees. As to all the multiple posts that have been generated that say exactly the same thing without one single argument ever being mobilised to move the argument forward if that does count as idiotic I do not know what does. I respect arguments a la Champskees not behavioural outputs that are the manifest drivel of schizoid personality disorder ie the word philosophy is mobilised without the self-knowledge they are really manifesting misdirected 'schizotypal ideas of reference' toward a quasi-religious cult worship of a book/character.
I am interested in threads that are fun so wordplay and so on. I also like 'serious' threads that improve odds and so on. I do not 'respect' drivel.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 28, 2016 23:02:35 GMT
Some FF gamebooks have strong storytelling, others have better gameplay. These two factors are what make a gamebook and having a high level in both makes the adventure epic. However, if one area should fail, the other must be brilliant to save it. Black Vein Prophecy did this correctly Different opinions is a good thing. I think for me that Crypt of the Sorcerer (10/10) is far better than Black Vein Prophecy (6/10). The playability of Crypt of the Sorcerer is wonderful for me, superb, because it allows me to visit all, and feel in the maximum this spectacular epic adventure, unlike many books such as Creature of Havoc, that have to me a poor playability because They do not allow me to visit a huge amount of places and gatherings. Besides all this, the Crypt of the Sorcerer is magic because besides all the demand, the lake, the helpless Yaztromo and the Gargantis, is Razaak, the most powerful, fantastic and mystical of all enemies by a huge, huge distance.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 29, 2016 0:24:18 GMT
To say that Crypt of the Sorcerer is 10/10 is also just your opinion with only your singular belief and following to back it up. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing so but it's not something you should expect in others not matter how frequently or strongly you try to push the case. Though your cult following in Razaak does make me wonder, if Crypt of the Sorcerer did not feature this villain would you still praise it in the same way? For example if Razaak were to be replaced by [insert generic Necromancer name here] who had similar powers but looked different.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 29, 2016 0:30:44 GMT
Though your cult following in Razaak does make me wonder, if Crypt of the Sorcerer did not feature this villain would you still praise it in the same way? Crypt of the Sorcerer is a very good book. But it is only 10/10 because of Razaak. Razaak is the main piece of Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 29, 2016 0:50:38 GMT
I see. If there was a re-release and Crypt of the Sorcerer was one of them, I know for a fact that you wouldn't any of Razaak's stats to be changed but how do you feel about the hero getting the right combat bonuses? As per House of Hell and others, wielding Razaak's magic sword should at least give you a +1 Attack Strength bonus, and as being the only weapon that can harm him should give a +4 bonus against the R-man himself.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 29, 2016 1:11:15 GMT
I know for a fact that you wouldn't any of Razaak's stats to be changed but how do you feel about the hero getting the right combat bonuses? To maintain his skill and his stamina. Change all the other difficulties. I do not care. I have heard that Razaak is a two dimensional character, few words, little presence. Compared to Roweena, Myurr, Xakhaaz, Balthus Dire, Zanbar Bone, Titanium Cyborg, Agglax, Zagor - Razaak defineately has much more presence, much more character, much more power to me. Defineately few words may have much more content than many .. his eyes are clear, direct, deep. Razaak is by far the most powerful, profound and fantastic of all opponents of all FF Books.
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Post by philsadler on May 29, 2016 7:48:38 GMT
I wonder how many people, including Vagsancho, have completed this book without cheating? I mean the story's not bad but when it's married to an unwinnable game ... what's the point?
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 29, 2016 20:33:54 GMT
I wonder how many people, including Vagsancho, have completed this book without cheating? I mean the story's not bad but when it's married to an unwinnable game ... what's the point? Semi-cheating whereby I pre-rolled all the difficult rolls and fights in consecutive logical steps a long time ago and then 'inserted' them into a standard read through including all the more mundane fights. This was during a week off work. The turbo-charged method must have been about a 1000 attempts which seems to fit mathematical probability. Very strictly still cheating though.
If a real 'professional' has ever completed 1000 attempts to achieve the mathematical probability required they must be independently wealthy or unemployed and have the singular mindset of the severely autistic.
As to the above where my 'acid' was perhaps overflowing I feel Sylas has offered a good compromise. The encounters are an interesting read but it is so mechanically broken. The 5/10 score is a highly plausible compromise.
The other strong suggestion is people may be 'word' minded or 'number' minded and this may greatly affect their interest and create a bias toward great writing or game mechanics. People can say where they are coming from and that is a 'fact' about them but at the very least they can articulate where they are coming from even if you find at the end you are in different worlds of interpretation eg Champskees economist mindset pushes toward a 'number' outlook whereas if you are a librarian you might offer a radical 'word' interpretation. This can be highly amusing and enlightening so I would not want to be some sort of limiting bully on here suppressing either viewpoint.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 29, 2016 20:57:04 GMT
Funnily enough, I actually know someone who's completed Crypt of the Sorcerer...so he claims. But he's a friend and how can I even begin to argue the case? I'm not saying he's a liar...but I know he's lying.
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Post by philsadler on May 29, 2016 21:30:47 GMT
An old friend of mine said that too, but whether he meant 'without cheating' or not I may never know. Still, I'm sure someone really has completed it legitimately.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on May 29, 2016 22:47:13 GMT
A sane person would never complete it, but one driven to insanity might have...which actually explains a lot on this board.
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Post by hynreck on May 30, 2016 12:50:06 GMT
You want to know what you'd look like finishing Crypt without cheating? Look up John Carpenter's In the Mouth of Madness, that'll give you a good idea.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 30, 2016 14:40:33 GMT
Sometimes I think, for sure, no doubt, if Livingstone will go in fact to raise Razaak again, Yaztromo and Nicodemus will have to join forces to face him. And even so... it is somewhere written in the bible .. one day all things that are, will no longer be.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 30, 2016 15:11:05 GMT
Sometimes I think, for sure, no doubt, if Livingstone will go in fact to raise Razaak again, Yaztromo and Nicodemus will have to join forces to face him. And even so... it is somewhere written in the bible .. one day all things that are, will no longer be. If you claim to understand philosophy do you know what a non-sequiteur is?
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