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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 8, 2021 23:09:10 GMT
30 Rings of Kether 6 13 15 18 5 5 3 5 TOTAL 62 / FF 5So the highest ranking Sci Fi book is one that would be better in another setting. It reads and plays out like a classic 1920s based film noir, with a slight air of mystery. The space elements are well done, yet something is missing in marrying the elements together. The final baddie is underwhelming. However, it is still well balanced and an easy book to play through and replay a couple more times before forgetting about for years. The Rings of Kether is 35 places better than Night of the Necromancer. Where is John Mcenroe?
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Post by The Count on Jan 8, 2021 23:12:07 GMT
29 Howl of the Werewolf 5 15 14 14 9 5 6 9 TOTAL 62 / FF 7
Green at his best - prose is on point, well planned and played out plot, great balance of fights between easier and difficult, dripping in gothic splendour throughout - greatly enhanced by the magnificent artwork. Unlike most of his books, there are TWO ways to win! So why do I not enjoy it more? Aside from the typical plague of codewords, if you do everything right, the change mechanic only makes the book far easier on the short path. The stat range is reduced which seems contrived and makes replay less appealing as there is no real variety or challenge. The extra length of the book provides the second route of the multiple bosses, however there are simply too many cliched ideas in here (spider woman, snake lady, mega maggot...) that seem recycled from earlier books making them surplus to requirements. This could have been reduced to two bosses and worked in better to make the book tighter and stay within 400 paragraphs. Signs of vast overcorrection from his earlier reader hating tomes. So overall what should be one of the best FF books is a bit meh...
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 8, 2021 23:28:25 GMT
I quite like the sci-fi books, but the illustrations are poor. They all have a certain style, which is fine, but considering the art games workshop put out for rogue trader at roughly the same time, it really is sub standard. I like Gary Mayes' art (Rebel Planet, Robot Commando and Star Strider). He's no Nicholson or McKenna but his work was pretty solid and suited the more metallic, grimy subject matter of the sci-fi books. Tim Sell (Sky Lord) and Geoffrey Senior (Space Assassin) also did ok with a more cartoony approach. Nik Spender tried something similar with Rings of Kether but less successfully in my opinion. The comic book art of Appointment with Fear was certainly fitting. I would agree that Starship Traveller and Freeway Fighter had pretty poor art, probably the two worst books in the series as regards illustrations.
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Post by The Count on Jan 8, 2021 23:32:21 GMT
The comic book art of Appointment with Fear was certainly fitting. Yes - abysmal art for an abysmal book.
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Post by The Count on Jan 9, 2021 0:05:54 GMT
28 Return to Firetop Mountain 7 12 16 11 6 10 3 9 TOTAL 62 / FF 7
Usually, the sequel is worse than the original. However, I find that the Return is a much more satisfying venture. Yes, it contains the Livingstone trademarks of linearity, massive amount of item gathering, ridiculously difficult battles, a stroll through Allansia and sometimes terse paragraphs. However, there is an atmosphere of tension that was missing from the original. Zagor is now a bona fide villain although more on the panto side with his on Z brand logo everywhere. The pre mountain trek does seem dangerous, yet doesn't come to much. Inside, there are enough touches for the reader to feel nostalgic while also reminding you that you are supposed to be a different character, and the changes to the start are almost enough to throw those who have read the first book off - Ian was either being careless or lazy here. After the river, the massive change in the dungeon is for the better - no bland, frustrating maze! Despite being quite tough and linear, it is a great book to play, especially as it has a few nice red herrings and encounters.
There is no excuse for the dodgy covers for the Puffin and Wizard versions - the Scholastic cover is great however, and the wonderful artwork was deservedly reprinted in it.
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kieran
Baron
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Post by kieran on Jan 9, 2021 0:16:50 GMT
The comic book art of Appointment with Fear was certainly fitting. Yes - abysmal art for an abysmal book. Haha, well, not quite what I meant!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 9, 2021 0:26:36 GMT
29 Howl of the Werewolf 5 15 14 14 9 5 6 9 TOTAL 62 / FF 7
Green at his best - prose is on point, well planned and played out plot, great balance of fights between easier and difficult, dripping in gothic splendour throughout - greatly enhanced by the magnificent artwork. Unlike most of his books, there are TWO ways to win! So why do I not enjoy it more? Aside from the typical plague of codewords, if you do everything right, the change mechanic only makes the book far easier on the short path. The stat range is reduced which seems contrived and makes replay less appealing as there is no real variety or challenge. The extra length of the book provides the second route of the multiple bosses, however there are simply too many cliched ideas in here (spider woman, snake lady, mega maggot...) that seem recycled from earlier books making them surplus to requirements. This could have been reduced to two bosses and worked in better to make the book tighter and stay within 400 paragraphs. Signs of vast overcorrection from his earlier reader hating tomes. So overall what should be one of the best FF books is a bit meh... I think this is really critical but I am glad the best of the classic books took the overall rankings top spots. Even with 10 skill Serpensa is a real challenge. The mechanic of having 8-10 skill means the book is finely tuned. Compare this to the absurdity of having the final encounter in Crown being levelled so it can be all things to all men. I think your first sentence says it all.
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Post by The Count on Jan 9, 2021 0:46:36 GMT
29 Howl of the Werewolf 5 15 14 14 9 5 6 9 TOTAL 62 / FF 7
Green at his best - prose is on point, well planned and played out plot, great balance of fights between easier and difficult, dripping in gothic splendour throughout - greatly enhanced by the magnificent artwork. Unlike most of his books, there are TWO ways to win! So why do I not enjoy it more? Aside from the typical plague of codewords, if you do everything right, the change mechanic only makes the book far easier on the short path. The stat range is reduced which seems contrived and makes replay less appealing as there is no real variety or challenge. The extra length of the book provides the second route of the multiple bosses, however there are simply too many cliched ideas in here (spider woman, snake lady, mega maggot...) that seem recycled from earlier books making them surplus to requirements. This could have been reduced to two bosses and worked in better to make the book tighter and stay within 400 paragraphs. Signs of vast overcorrection from his earlier reader hating tomes. So overall what should be one of the best FF books is a bit meh... I think this is really critical but I am glad the best of the classic books took the overall rankings top spots. Even with 10 skill Serpensa is a real challenge. The mechanic of having 8-10 skill means the book is finely tuned. Compare this to the absurdity of having the final encounter in Crown being levelled so it can be all things to all men. I think your first sentence says it all. I think its too finely tuned, based on countering scathing feedback on his near impossible earlier efforts instead of trying to make this the best it could be using the existing mechanics. Still, it is 45 places above the dismal Crown.
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Post by The Count on Jan 9, 2021 1:43:29 GMT
27 Deathmoor 5 13 15 16 7 7 3 8 TOTAL 63 / FF 6
Now, this is an interesting book. Waterfield is a decent author yet this has a bad reputation. True, the idea of the kidnapped princess is a bit hackneyed despite never being explored in FF before though is made quite gruesome in places. The joke plumbers are not funny and date the book badly. Fang-Zen is toothless. In places, it appears to have been padded from a shorter adventure - was this the first test for a 300 paragraph FF book? Those points aside, there are a few different paths you can take, although one doesn't seem to give any real advantage beyond exploring more of the book, the titular moor is suitably bleak, there are some great encounters with new creatures and one of the most esoteric instant deaths in the whole series. While it adds nothing new and is almost a step backwards after some of the more complicated and linear slogs that came before (and after), it is quite refreshing to have actual options alongside my essential items. The final confrontation is over rather quickly after an incredibly difficult puzzle - one I could manage but not one younger readers would be able to do. Overall, this is more intriguing than sheer fun and there are signs that it was an afterthought, or as it is missing the anti-cheating mechanisms of the later books, perhaps was an earlier unfinished or rejected effort given a quick once over to plug a scheduling gap.
The cover is terrible, while the inside art is good, there are not enough drawings of the new / unique creatures.
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Post by The Count on Jan 9, 2021 3:05:40 GMT
26 Keep of the Lich Lord 7 12 14 18 8 8 3 6 TOTAL 67 / FF 6
The one that changed scores and places the most in my spreadsheet, and probably the hardest to rank. When this first came out, I loved it. A good, well written plot with relevant creatures and encounters, alongside a few unique monsters, a tense atmosphere and lots to explore on the way - while some of it was useful, only the Spear seemed essential. The Alarm Value and Resolve stats looked to be well integrated and have an actual effect. Plus there was another way to victory, even if it seemed counter intuitive by fighting Mortis outside after you had gone to all the trouble of trying to get to him in the Keep.
Then I found out you could literally walk up to the final encounter within about 30 paragraphs, anything outside this path was a mere side quest making it pointless and I discovered the terrible in jokes about the pub names, the new stats really didn't do anything and noticed how you are supposed to be an idiot by asking why a village plagued by vampires is scared of vampires. What was once easily within my Top 10 lost a lot of its shine. That the best ending is a slightly longer route involving minor exploration in the Keep and leaving once you get the lucky nuke. As all the best encounters, most the toughest fights and most intriguing plot threads are on the side quests (such as the Chaos Pirates, gibbet, Wights, the Elite guards), this is a colossal waste of around 75% of the book! Without them, it is far too easy! It wouldn't have been too difficult to add some of these to the true path, make the holy hand grenade not be a predictable OTK, and end up with a very well constructed, challenging and rewarding book. As it is, its still fairly enjoyable as long as you make it into a decent story for yourself by doing some side quests - otherwise, you might as well just not bother.
I have sometimes wondered what the republished in another setting version is like, and if it makes use of the ~300 references of padding...
The art is a mixed bag, though mostly good. Maybe the drawings came first and the book was an afterthought?
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Post by tyrion on Jan 9, 2021 10:33:25 GMT
The republished fabled lands version of kotll is pretty much the same, except for name changes.
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Post by petch on Jan 9, 2021 11:24:55 GMT
30 Rings of Kether 6 13 15 18 5 5 3 5 TOTAL 62 / FF 5So the highest ranking Sci Fi book is one that would be better in another setting. It reads and plays out like a classic 1920s based film noir, with a slight air of mystery. The space elements are well done, yet something is missing in marrying the elements together. The final baddie is underwhelming. However, it is still well balanced and an easy book to play through and replay a couple more times before forgetting about for years. I'm pleased this is your top ranked sci fi book - while it's not my top one, it is an entry that I always thought was overlooked / underrated. But I totally agree with you, it would have worked better in a different setting as the bits where you get to play the hard-boiled gumshoe are terrific fun, and it loses momentum when it becomes a sci fi blastathon towards the end. Also because of its noir stylings, Chapman's rat-a-tat-tat prose style (that made Space Assassin seem a bit slapdash to me) worked perfectly here.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 9, 2021 11:39:18 GMT
Even with 10 skill Serpensa is a real challenge. The mechanic of having 8-10 skill means the book is finely tuned. I agree with that. I've said it before, I think the d6+6 for SKILL creates a number too variable to balance the combat in the books properly. Well done to JG for adjusting it. Also, well done on him not having 400 as the sacred number. If the book 'wants' more references, let it have it.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 9, 2021 11:46:05 GMT
I would agree that Starship Traveller and Freeway Fighter had pretty poor art, probably the two worst books in the series as regardless illustrations. The art in both feels rushed, doesn't it? In FF13's case I believe this was certainly the case and that the artist Kevin Bulmer was helping Ian L out by coming up with the art at very short notice.
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Post by stevendoig on Jan 9, 2021 14:23:54 GMT
The artist still could have been given more dynamic references to illustrate though! - observe the classics. 'Woman serves at Gas Station' & 'Nice man gives you a wee wave'. ( among others
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jan 9, 2021 16:47:02 GMT
I think this is really critical but I am glad the best of the classic books took the overall rankings top spots. Even with 10 skill Serpensa is a real challenge. The mechanic of having 8-10 skill means the book is finely tuned. Compare this to the absurdity of having the final encounter in Crown being levelled so it can be all things to all men. I think your first sentence says it all. I think its too finely tuned, based on countering scathing feedback on his near impossible earlier efforts instead of trying to make this the best it could be using the existing mechanics. Still, it is 45 places above the dismal Crown. I am not sure I agree. I think the shorter solution with 8 skill is finely tuned though my solution has not been tested. Also the longer solution with 10 skill is finely tuned though the solution on here is only one solution. I think my solution captures a route where the sword and difficult battles are not necessary.
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Post by The Count on Jan 9, 2021 18:47:31 GMT
The artist still could have been given more dynamic references to illustrate though! - observe the classics. 'Woman serves at Gas Station' & 'Nice man gives you a wee wave'. ( among others Then you wouldn't have the should have been award winning 'Stick (and some stuff in the background)'
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 9, 2021 19:29:55 GMT
The artist still could have been given more dynamic references to illustrate though! - observe the classics. 'Woman serves at Gas Station' & 'Nice man gives you a wee wave'. ( among others Then you wouldn't have the should have been award winning 'Stick (and some stuff in the background)' The esteemed Count no doubt refers to this image?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 9, 2021 21:23:57 GMT
Then you wouldn't have the should have been award winning 'Stick (and some stuff in the background)' View AttachmentThe esteemed Count no doubt refers to this image? I always thought that was an AK47 with zero detail.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 2:40:09 GMT
Then you wouldn't have the should have been award winning 'Stick (and some stuff in the background)' View AttachmentThe esteemed Count no doubt refers to this image? Only redeeming feature of that crappy excuse for a book!
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 3:44:53 GMT
25 Dead of Night 5 15 16 14 10 10 7 9 TOTAL 70 / FF 7
When I first read this, I was not expecting much as full blown horror is not my thing, and the premise for the whole adventure is a rather tired cliche (baddie hates you so targets your family... blah blah blah...). Yet, the brilliant writing and sinister illustrations sucked me into the plot and storyline where the tension slowly increases the closer you get to the final confrontation, and the wonderful art enhances this feeling. The talents are well integrated and its not clear which ones, if any, are the most beneficial. There are a few gripes though - the ability to essentially stop fighting Myurr to attack random objects, the farmhouse fight with the skeletons and the minor theft from LOTR. Overall, it is a gripping adventure with lots of options and good balance.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 4:53:50 GMT
24 Legend of Zagor 7 18 18 10 8 9 6 9 TOTAL 70 / FF 6
Another difficult one to place, more due to it being quite unique. Being a Keith Martin book, the adventure is a mix of linear and hubs with descriptive, atmospheric prose and some incredibly difficult enemies. While the idea of Zagor becoming fused with a being from another dimension is a bit hard to swallow, as soon as you get into the castle, you are drawn so deep into the tale that you don't really care. The writing is enhanced by some beautiful artwork and it is hard to tell at times if the art inspired the story, or the story inspired the art even though you know that the art is commissioned on certain scenes. The whole thing is beautifully complex and heavily layered - and aside from a minor gripe about what constitutes stairs and a missing part of a calculation, doesn't have the plethora of bugs and editing errors that taint most of the post 40 books. Having four different characters gives great opportunity to replay whether you want to try something easier, or take a major challenge, and the subtly different routes are incredibly well implemented. Unfortunately, these are one of the biggest downfalls of Legend as not only are the stats limited below the usual max stats, and given lower minimums which decreases the chances of success. The other problem is Zagor himself - after a lot of tough enemies, there was no need for him to be able to cause such severe damage, and that you are effectively punished for succeeding in gathering enough essential items. I would have loved there to be a route through for a generic FF character, but given how much was packed into the book already, that would have been excessive.
Though the internal image of Zagor is great, the Wizard cover is an improvement as Zagor looks much more daemonic.
I've never read the Zagor Chronicles or played the board game so I don't know how much influence these had over each other.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 5:49:44 GMT
23 Midnight Rogue 6 13 16 15 8 12 6 8 TOTAL 70 / FF 7
Another one that was a top ten when I was younger, and has had some of the shine fall off. The idea is very unique and plays out very well with some great set pieces, and a nice mystery to unwrap. Admittedly, the second half is very linear and more of a traditional dungeon, but that is the whole point. There are blatant instant death areas to visit in the city, and the other areas have a very different feel to City of Thieves - there is a definite air of tension as you sneak around. Where the shine falls off is that it always made sense to me to visit the thieves quarter first so was unaware of the time loop where you could essentially revisit the three key areas almost endlessly and that taking certain skills is utterly useless. I don't mind the twist at the end and the dungeon part is much harder in terms of encounters than the city part, however it is reasonably well balanced. The two anti cheat paragraphs are pointless and do sour things somewhat as its quite an easy book all things considered and an enjoyable read.
The cover is ok, while the art is lovely with some great details.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 6:29:55 GMT
22 Daggers of Darkness 6 14 13 17 7 15 6 7 TOTAL 72 / FF 7
This is one of these books where I enjoy it for the sake of it. The writing is decent, the story is ok, the art is solid and the encounters are interesting. Yet, it isn't particularly memorable for either of these things. It is good fun, and the ending is great. There is nothing bad about it. There are however better books.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 8:00:09 GMT
21 Revenge of the Vampire 8 16 16 11 7 14 4 9 TOTAL 72 / FF 7
This was definitely the most difficult to rank. There is no denying that Keith Martin writes the most atmospheric gamebooks within FF, and some of the most complex. Unfortunately, it is also true that his books were not checked properly (if at all) by the editors paid to do the job of checking them, which would include that paragraphs link correctly and that puzzles made sense. So what should have been a gripping sequel to Vault of the Vampire, and the saving grace of the ridiculously named Analand, turned out to be one of the most derided FF books ever. The plot is similar to that of a good Hammer Horror sequel, and contains similar elements - corrupted monks, treacherous hags, futile chases and a plethora of undead monsters. It does lack the requisite buxom wench to scream at the appropriate points, but you'd just throw her to the nearest ghoul to devour really... The obvious flaw is the price of a horse - any sensible editor would have changed that to say "it costs you 8GP, or as much as you have" so that those who have managed to get 9GP or more would be able to proceed as planned, while those who had not would have to take the tougher route - a SINGLE read through would have spotted and fixed these errors! Luckily Keith always had alternative routes for those who don't manage to get the main items. At times, this does feel slightly long, until you realise just how much is packed into 400 references, all dripping with tension. The ending does fall slightly flat as it uses the same twist as Vault, and it feels forced rather than the real end as it did there. The faults with this lie squarely with overpaid Puffin employees who clearly wanted rid of the series that made them a small fortune for over a decade. Once you learn where the errors lie, and how to get round them without cheating, this is a great book. Shame it will probably never be republished as in doing so it could be edited to fix the Puffin idleness and make this the masterpiece it deserves to be.
While the internal art is exquisite, the cover is technically great but looks like the Count is going to sneeze so lacks menace.
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kieran
Baron
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 10, 2021 9:24:32 GMT
The other problem is Zagor himself - after a lot of tough enemies, there was no need for him to be able to cause such severe damage, and that you are effectively punished for succeeding in gathering enough essential items. I actually feel the opposite about Zagor. Sure, he has some very powerful attacks but by the time you reach him, you'll probably have so many silver daggers and golden talismans that you can kill him in very short order. Bar his below average luck, Braxus is pretty much a generic FF hero. Is that Zagor? I think it might be the Hellhorn Champion.
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Post by tyrion on Jan 10, 2021 11:18:47 GMT
I recently played legend of zagor. By the time I got to zagor himself, I had +4 attack strength bonus from my armour and sword and a skill of 11 from using the orb. Zagor only had skill 9 and stamina 10 from talismans and daggers. Felt a bit sorry for him really, he didn't stand a chance.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 18:52:42 GMT
I recently played legend of zagor. By the time I got to zagor himself, I had +4 attack strength bonus from my armour and sword and a skill of 11 from using the orb. Zagor only had skill 9 and stamina 10 from talismans and daggers. Felt a bit sorry for him really, he didn't stand a chance. I like playing as Stubble of the Wizard, and haven't reached Zagor for a long time though don't ever remember the fight being that advantageous.
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 19:01:22 GMT
The other problem is Zagor himself - after a lot of tough enemies, there was no need for him to be able to cause such severe damage, and that you are effectively punished for succeeding in gathering enough essential items. I actually feel the opposite about Zagor. Sure, he has some very powerful attacks but by the time you reach him, you'll probably have so many silver daggers and golden talismans that you can kill him in very short order. Possibly, though it does depend on your initial stats, and you're likely to be very low on Stamina. The wizard still has no chance. Bar his below average luck, Braxus is pretty much a generic FF hero. They should just have made Braxus the generic FF hero and made his bonus items ineffective. Is that Zagor? I think it might be the Hellhorn Champion. Pretty sure its supposed to be Zagor
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Post by The Count on Jan 10, 2021 20:02:06 GMT
20 Temple of Terror 7 12 16 15 9 16 9 9 TOTAL 75 / FF 7
This is probably the biggest upset for me - as one of the first, if not THE first, FF books I ever read, I have very fond memories of this. I can remember seeing it in the library and showing it to my dad, and subsequently playing it repeatedly at the kitchen table. The picture of the Rat Men feasting put me off my lunch. While there are two routes to Vatos, I don't ever remember taking the one that ensures you miss an essential item although I must have at some point. In a book that already oozes atmosphere (one of the few Livingstone efforts to do so), what adds to the mystery and sense of dread is the Messenger of Death and the chance of finding the DEATH letters - it took me ages to realise that they were not hiding the Dragon artefact I was missing. Some incredibly memorable encounters - the Phantom, Guard, Night Horror, Rat Men, Sword Corridor, Fat Harem Guard - and unfortunately a villain that with time turned out to be a side show at best and an afterthought at worst. I never liked the silly sunburnt dwarf that randomly shows up to give you a hammer as you could have found one within Vatos, and when I realised this was Ian forcing you to consider the plot of one of his tedious tomes it soured a lot about this book. While it is linear and you are supposedly in a city, I never really noticed that you were essentially in a dungeon, and always considered that I was exploring the titular temple, though having the spells in the introduction instead of in separate paragraphs would have given a bit more scope for exploration. Having another boss who was more developed than the supposed big bad did take away from things on future readings as well. However, considering this is a Livingstone penned adventure, most fights were fair - only the Night Horror, Pterodactyl and Malbordus for the first 3 attack rounds are not, and I don't recall an opponent above Skill 10 in the entire book. Still an incredibly enjoyable book to play.
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