kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 28, 2021 21:42:35 GMT
I feel if it was meant to sound like something bumhole-related it would need a double L.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 28, 2021 21:46:28 GMT
And you only defeat him because you go back to a point in time where you originally had no suspicions One issue I have with that moment is the Serpent of Time kinda gives the game away. Not only does this kinda spoil things for the reader, it's impossible to act on this information anyway. Its only function is to act as a spoiler.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Feb 28, 2021 22:17:35 GMT
And you only defeat him because you go back to a point in time where you originally had no suspicions One issue I have with that moment is the Serpent of Time kinda gives the game away. Not only does this kinda spoil things for the reader, it's impossible to act on this information anyway. Its only function is to act as a spoiler. Do you think so? "The Archmage is not as he seems. He may be disguised in Mampang.' It's been so long since I first read the book that I can't remember what effect this piece of intelligence had on me at the time. I know I wrote down all the serpents' clues and studied them before starting Book 4. And I do know I didn't have Farren Whyde immediately marked down as the Archmage in disguise, that much i do remember. Perhaps less of a spoiler and more an attempt to sow seeds of paranoia or distrust? [Also I'm aware that this thread is turning into something that might be best suited to the Sorcery Board. We're cluttering The Count's thread up with discussion of some of his least liked books, ironically. I'm sure if he asked the mods to move it there it'd be fine. I don't mind either way, tbh.]
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 28, 2021 22:51:51 GMT
And I do know I didn't have Farren Whyde immediately marked down as the Archmage in disguise I remember my first time I was definitely suspicious that he might be the Archmage but as there was no option to challenge him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then got frustrated when Jann told me I had been right all along.
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sylas
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"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
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Post by sylas on Feb 28, 2021 23:33:55 GMT
And I do know I didn't have Farren Whyde immediately marked down as the Archmage in disguise I remember my first time I was definitely suspicious that he might be the Archmage but as there was no option to challenge him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then got frustrated when Jann told me I had been right all along. Suspicious is right, as is the way FF characters go. Random old men are disguised powerful wizards, and blind persons are the most knowledgeable.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 1, 2021 1:37:43 GMT
I feel if it was meant to sound like something bumhole-related it would need a double L. Exactly: because you recognise the 'land' part first and read backwards. Or were you making a sly allusion to Welsh?
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 1, 2021 9:50:31 GMT
Or were you making a sly allusion to Welsh? If only I were that smart.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 1, 2021 11:05:14 GMT
I remember my first time I was definitely suspicious that he might be the Archmage but as there was no option to challenge him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Then got frustrated when Jann told me I had been right all along. Suspicious is right, as is the way FF characters go. Random old men are disguised powerful wizards, and blind persons are the most knowledgeable. On reflection you are both right. Beggars, too. Don't forget them. They always know or have crucial stuff. So if I meet an old, blind beggar I make sure to chuck a gold piece his or her way.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 1, 2021 11:18:54 GMT
So if I meet an old, blind beggar I make sure to chuck a gold piece his or her way. Although that logic doesn't carry over to Lone Wolf. Chuck a beggar in Book 2 a gold crown and his mates mob you!
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Post by petch on Mar 1, 2021 12:11:57 GMT
I feel if it was meant to sound like something bumhole-related it would need a double L. See him though he sees you not,The brown-eyed creature creeps...Oh wait sorry, I'm getting mixed up with the bum-faced demon from Gates of Death.
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Post by The Count on Mar 1, 2021 14:55:31 GMT
I feel if it was meant to sound like something bumhole-related it would need a double L. Its not meant to, yet it does. I'm amazed the excremental Gates of Death isn't set there...
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Post by The Count on Mar 2, 2021 2:08:40 GMT
In some ways, this thread could be an interesting study into fandom.
I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both. On here, that is noticeable with Sorcery! and Deathtrap Dungeon - to a lesser extent with CoH, HoH, NoN, HotW, CoT, CoC - inexplicably add FoD on FB. The reaction towards my opinions on Sorcery! and DD in various threads, including this one, bears that theory out. In contrast, there is little attempt to for example fully discuss the differences in opinion over Chasms of Malice or continue mutual appreciation of Black Vein Prophecy beyond a few posts.
Incidentally, the more people try to pretend it isn't ANAL-and, the more likely I am to consider Sorcery! to be overhyped, overrated and underachieving.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Mar 2, 2021 5:56:02 GMT
In some ways, this thread could be an interesting study into fandom. I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both. On here, that is noticeable with Sorcery! and Deathtrap Dungeon - to a lesser extent with CoH, HoH, NoN, HotW, CoT, CoC - inexplicably add FoD on FB. The reaction towards my opinions on Sorcery! and DD in various threads, including this one, bears that theory out. In contrast, there is little attempt to for example fully discuss the differences in opinion over Chasms of Malice or continue mutual appreciation of Black Vein Prophecy beyond a few posts. Incidentally, the more people try to pretend it isn't ANAL-and, the more likely I am to consider Sorcery! to be overhyped, overrated and underachieving. I'm not 100% sure of this. This forum seems slightly less inclined than many I have seen to close ranks. Or, let's say, it seems more tolerant of divergent tastes. I've seen plenty of dissing of both Sorcery! and Deathtrap Dungeon without it leading to the Great Flame Wars I've seen in other fan venues (I'm old enough to remember flame wars in print media, including the Great Fireball Debate in Alarums & Excursions).Discussions about Chasms of Malice or Black Vein Prophecy seem to have petered out more because people just stopped discussing them, than through any groupthink mechanism. Personally, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think any word that ends '-land' tends to be read based on that, but nevertheless I'm not going to argue with you about Sorcery! I believe I started reading it some time in the late 80s and drifted off in disinterest... The crappy names are the least of its problems.
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Post by stevendoig on Mar 2, 2021 6:46:36 GMT
I ONLY wish to prove you wrong over 'Analand'. If you don't like the Sorcery series I really don't care.
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Post by tyrion on Mar 2, 2021 7:40:17 GMT
I always thought it was Anna-land, but after a look through this thread, if it was Anal-land, wouldn't the land bit be pronounced 'lund', as in Ing-lund, Scot-lund etc. It doesn't really sound rude then. Try saying it like Ingerlund (as sports fans call our country), it sounds more like Aynalund.
I'm not fussed if somebody doesn't like Sorcery! The illustrations alone are divisive enough.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 2, 2021 10:19:16 GMT
I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both. I don't think anyone is trying to discredit you or prove you wrong, just explaining why they disagree. But ultimately, you are perfectly entitled to think Sorcery and Deathtrap Dungeon are rubbish. But when you voice a minority opinion, you're going to be met with a lot of disagreement. As long as it's polite disagreement, I see no problem with that. I think we've all received it over our opinions of some of the books - I definitely went against the consensus with Slaves of the Abyss. In the example of Deathtrap Dungeon, I think the main point of contention was that you were insisting there is a continuity error with the contestants bypassing some of the obstacles and others were arguing that there were scenarios one can envision as to how those obstacles can be bypassed - not so much trying to prove you wrong as offering an alternative to your view. Same with the Ana-land vs Anal-land thing. You and Mudworm see the latter, but the rest of us see the former so it's not an issue for us in the way it is for you. Personally, I feel myself less inclined to respond when someone states they like something I dislike as opposed to vice-versa. I don't really enjoy pointing out (what I believe are) flaws in something that someone has stated they enjoy (although I did make an exception with Slaves I guess! But there I was going against the board consensus as opposed to picking on one person's view). But if they are pointing out supposed flaws in a thing I enjoy, I'm more likely to respond. I think between Tyrion, Wilf and your threads there's been quite a lot of BVP gushing recently, no?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 2, 2021 10:36:55 GMT
In some ways, this thread could be an interesting study into fandom. I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both.... The reaction towards my opinions on Sorcery! and DD in various threads, including this one, bears that theory out. First - a bit of a provocative post there if you don't mind me saying so, Count! Second, I agree with your first sentence, it could well be. Sleepyscholar can give the yes or no to that. Third and onwards ... I don't consider you a 'hater'. Having thankfully grown up in a world without the internet, I think (hope!) my brain is less encumbered by a reliance on 'internet talk' like 'fanboyz' and 'haters' and the mentality that can go with it. On these boards, I consider you a critic. And myself too, when I think about it. As you know, we are all putting up our thoughts for public discussion and that means criticism as well as praise will come. If you have an opinion held by a minority of people, then the comments will reflect that. The more trenchant and forthright your own words and opinions the more forthright the replies to you will be. Unless I've missed something, there's been no attempt to 'discredit' you. I certainly hope that's not the case. Can you show me where that was? 'I think you are wrong and this is why' is not the same as 'I think you are wrong and need to be silenced or brought into the hivemind... isn't that so, my fellow hiveminders?' The internet is full of forums with stuff like 'Yeah we're all ....like, Team Sorcery! here?! ... and you SUCK for liking Chasms of Malice LOSERZ. pwned! LOL [followed by a moronic gif]'. I'd hope this isn't one of them. In contrast, there is little attempt to for example fully discuss the differences in opinion over Chasms of Malice or continue mutual appreciation of Black Vein Prophecy beyond a few posts. By all means let us discuss them. The Alkis Alkiviades thread is recently up. My thoughts on his books are overall negative compared to other gamebooks. Having said that, I'm glad he wrote them, and I can enjoy them for sure, just not as much as others in the series. I'm specifically holding fire on commenting on BVP until I re-read it (I'm in the middle of a book full of Phillip K Dick short stories at the moment and with a load of other books yet to read, so I'll not have much to add to the discussion if there's one soon). Incidentally, the more people try to pretend it isn't ANAL-and, the more likely I am to consider Sorcery! to be overhyped, overrated and underachieving. Sorry to sound like Mr. Spock, but that literally makes no sense to me. It's a jump of logic I cannot make and I can't see the link between them. No-one's 'trying to pretend' anything and that whole strand of conversation about the origins of the name is an odd place to 'make a stand'. I feel you are either taking disagreement with your opinions personally or else in some way thinking that the more people disagree with you, then the more entrenched you must make those opinions. But ending on some more positive notes, I read your replies to me about Sorcery with interest. All I've said above is my own personal take on things. I do hope you can read the tone and humour in the replies on this thread overall. I advise you to read my replies imagining i've got a smile on my face, not a smirk or a snarl. And that's the case for almost everyone on here, I'd say. Edit: i see I've repeated a lot of what Kieran said, but I was still composing my post whilst his had already been posted.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 2, 2021 11:54:42 GMT
I think to take Analand as Anal-and rather than Ana-land, you'd also have to pronounce Vineland as Vinnel-and, or Maryland as Marill-and. The -land suffix is so strong as to affect pronunciation of the first part as well, hence Burntisland is not Burntiss-land.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 2, 2021 11:58:41 GMT
On the Sorcery! bit, there are similarities to Lord of the Rings, in that you start in a bucolic environment where the main threats are isolated encounters, you go through a blasted wasteland where the environment is toxic, and you finish up at the source of evil before you get whipped back out by aerial creatures.
But that's basically convergent evolution, there are only so many ways you can tell that story. Freeway Fighter has a sort of ex machina ending as well. There's no interest in the story back over well-trod lands, storywise you have to climax at the achievement. A final Sorcery! book of you legging it to the coast and trying to sail back to Analand would be anti-climactic. And LOTR doesn't have a city stage.
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Post by petch on Mar 2, 2021 12:49:25 GMT
I think Kieran & BBH's recent posts sum my feelings up rather nicely.
But I'll also say that I like that The Count has such polarising, entrenched opinions. It's certainly given me another perspective on books that are usually held in high esteem, and others that don't usually get a lot of love. It's also the lifeblood of a forum such as this as it offers the opportunity for lively debate (which is also the reason why I like lists, and why I posted mine, if only to provoke a reaction of 'IMO you've ranked x or y far too high or low, because...'). But that's all I've seen on here: respectful, friendly debate. Nothing more, and definitely no hate.
Plus, y'know, if you are going to post your opinions on a public forum you need to be prepared to defend them, or at least accept that differing views exist. I've done so lots of times, and I haven't even been here that long. Like, I still think Richard Ayoade is the best presenter The Crystal Maze has ever had, and have a thick enough skin to accept that literally no one else agrees with me on that point!
For what it's worth though, on the subject of Sorcery!, in the rankings thread Wilf said this:
The Count is obviously one, and I think I'm probably the other (I gave Hills and Khare a 4, Serpents a 5 and CoK a 7). I enjoyed it, but thought it was far from the best that the series had to offer. So I can confidently say that I straddle both sides of the debate like a colossus. Or sit on the fence like a wuss. One of the two.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 2, 2021 14:39:06 GMT
Like, I still think Richard Ayoade is the best presenter The Crystal Maze has ever had, and have a thick enough skin to accept that literally no one else agrees with me on that point! On a similar note, I think I've given up trying to convince people that 8 is the best Final Fantasy, Voyager is the best Star Trek, Roger Moore is the best Bond, and Forever is the best Batman movie. Re Ayoade, I think I'd like him more if his arrival didn't herald format changes which I don't care for.
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Post by petch on Mar 2, 2021 15:38:37 GMT
Like, I still think Richard Ayoade is the best presenter The Crystal Maze has ever had, and have a thick enough skin to accept that literally no one else agrees with me on that point! On a similar note, I think I've given up trying to convince people that 8 is the best Final Fantasy, Voyager is the best Star Trek, Roger Moore is the best Bond, and Forever is the best Batman movie. Re Ayoade, I think I'd like him more if his arrival didn't herald format changes which I don't care for. Oh yes, as an overall show it was better in the O'Brien/Tudor-Pole era due to better format, pacing and better games, you'll get no disagreement from me on that. I agree with 1 of your 4 other points!
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 2, 2021 15:57:38 GMT
I agree with 1 of your 4 other points! Well, one out of four ain't bad as Meatloaf never sang. Which one out of interest?
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Post by petch on Mar 2, 2021 17:12:54 GMT
I agree with 1 of your 4 other points! Well, one out of four ain't bad as Meatloaf never sang. Which one out of interest? I was going to leave it all mysterious but since you've asked! Batman Forever. It has the best soundtrack of the Batman films. I love the scene where Nygma completes his transformation into the Riddler to the strains of The Flaming Lips.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 2, 2021 20:03:31 GMT
55 Sky Lord 5 7 9 9 3 8 2 6 TOTAL 41 / FF 5
Could it finally be a book I actually enjoy? And its... Sky Lord?!? Why, yes it is! This is absolutely insane. It isn't badly written, especially compared to some of the other efforts. The storyline makes no real sense, though the final revenge of L'Bastian is darkly hilarious, especially now the current fashion is for self absorbed idiots to mutilate themselves for social media likes. Most of the encounters are similarly deranged and the roll pitch yaw puzzle section is suitably challenging, and not easy to remember for replays. The trick to this is to remember that the author either wasn't taking it seriously, was on a strange combination of dodgy substances, or wanted to highlight how little attention Puffin paid to the content of the actual books themselves (all too evident with the shocking errors in the later books). The standard fights lean towards being the easier side, while the ship fights are harder making the book fairly balanced. The art is OK and fitting for the book. On my first ever read, I wasn't that impressed. Now, I can appreciate the madness a lot more. I think I may have ranked this too low and the FF ranking is fairer. This is the only book out of the original 1-59 run that I actively wish had not been written and that the space had been taken up by something else. Was it aiming for 'Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' and fell short? Or some zany madcap whacky humour? It didn't work for me at the time that's for sure. Maybe it'll be funnier 30-odd years later but i doubt it. The roll pitch and yaw 'space combat' was like playing a game I didn't know the rules to. Fancy a game of chess where you don't know how to move the pieces? How hilarious would that be, eh? Random chance and random death. It's merely a memory test for subsequent readings. Think of what could have been done - potentially a small minigame like the tank combat in Space Assassins, or even the car chase in FF15. Or something else but with the feel of a proper dogfight. I cannot second-guess what the author was doing - none of the scenarios you outlined above cut the mustard for me. My personal take is that it was uninspired hack work. Just toss out a load of muck for some kids to read. I hope I'm wrong about that. Note - he didn't write another FF book so I think Puffin were paying attention at some point but by then it was probably too late - they should have rejected the book. And here's the worst part. It was the last FF science fiction book. If [and I do stress if] Sky Lord drove a hawthorn stake through the heart of science fiction in Fighting Fantasy from then on, then it ought to be right down there at the bottom of the pile.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Mar 2, 2021 21:38:59 GMT
Note - he didn't write another FF book Not after Sky Lord, but he did co-write Clash of the Princes with Andrew Chapman before doing Sky Lord. There's definitely something of Sky Lord in some of the wacky moments and abrupt instant deaths that pepper Clash of the Princes. But then again, Andrew Chapman wasn't against such things either. I genuinely like some of the wackiness of Sly Lord. The segment with Zud's cylinder I found particularly amusing.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 2, 2021 22:33:26 GMT
Note - he didn't write another FF book Not after Sky Lord, but he did co-write Clash of the Princes with Andrew Chapman before doing Sky Lord. There's definitely something of Sky Lord in some of the wacky moments and abrupt instant deaths that pepper Clash of the Princes. But then again, Andrew Chapman wasn't against such things either. I genuinely like some of the wackiness of Sly Lord. The segment with Zud's cylinder I found particularly amusing. Zud's antics are probably the stand-out part of the book, on a par with the fight against the blob. I've gone and got it off the shelf for the first time in decades and started reading it just now. Yep. It's as bad as I remember. In fact it's worse. I'm at that bit fighting the Valioog Mother Ship. If the book's to hand flip to para 56 play it from there and see what you think. As a game, as a spaceship fight, it fails just as badly as the 'yaw and pitch' fight against the Grand Archipelago. It's just a series of random options - like para 369 will you operate an electro-magnetic scanoscope [215], switch off your Gauss Pandimonializer [389], or push the flashing orange button on your console[342]? Of course you've not been told previously what any of those things are. You know what's going on here, don't you? It's filler. It's the author knowing he has to make it 400 paragraphs. Check this one out: para 302. You do not swim very far before a large, toothy Gooblepotomus pokes its snout out of the water. 'Ah, mmm...' it burbles 'it must be time for a little snack!' As you find it difficult to defend yourself in water deduct 2 SKILL points temporarily during the following combat. GOOBLEPOTOMUS SKILL 6 STAMINA 10 If you win you had better swim back to shore before you find yourself being attacked by another unwholesome creature... Sublime comedy. Side-splitting. Very much aimed at the sort of children who enjoyed Talisman of Death, House of Hell, or the previous entry Slaves of the Abyss. The introduction called 'About your star system' and then 'Mission Background' are irrelevant, unfunny but sadly extensive ramblings full of 'humorous' names, setting the tone of the whole book. I'll carry on reading it and see if it gets better but dear oh dear, it's poorly done.
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Post by The Count on Mar 3, 2021 0:43:44 GMT
In some ways, this thread could be an interesting study into fandom. I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both. On here, that is noticeable with Sorcery! and Deathtrap Dungeon - to a lesser extent with CoH, HoH, NoN, HotW, CoT, CoC - inexplicably add FoD on FB. The reaction towards my opinions on Sorcery! and DD in various threads, including this one, bears that theory out. In contrast, there is little attempt to for example fully discuss the differences in opinion over Chasms of Malice or continue mutual appreciation of Black Vein Prophecy beyond a few posts. Incidentally, the more people try to pretend it isn't ANAL-and, the more likely I am to consider Sorcery! to be overhyped, overrated and underachieving. I'm not 100% sure of this. This forum seems slightly less inclined than many I have seen to close ranks. Or, let's say, it seems more tolerant of divergent tastes. I've seen plenty of dissing of both Sorcery! and Deathtrap Dungeon without it leading to the Great Flame Wars I've seen in other fan venues (I'm old enough to remember flame wars in print media, including the Great Fireball Debate in Alarums & Excursions).Discussions about Chasms of Malice or Black Vein Prophecy seem to have petered out more because people just stopped discussing them, than through any groupthink mechanism. Personally, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think any word that ends '-land' tends to be read based on that, but nevertheless I'm not going to argue with you about Sorcery! I believe I started reading it some time in the late 80s and drifted off in disinterest... The crappy names are the least of its problems. I will gleefully admit that my post was deliberately provocative as while those behaviours are arguably evident, they are much softer. There is a clear majority blind spot about DD, and Sorcery! seems to be almost universally admired. Outside that, there is room for discussion about less popular books and only a couple of individuals seem to be entrenched in their and stubbornly vocal in their views. I am one of them. Old habits. Why? I was having a conversation with an old friend (a music journalist) about some forums we used to visit. There were a small group of us who were aware said artist wasn't very successful but we loved their music and would actually buy it unlike most on there. He was banned from an artists forum for accurately reporting on a disastrous album launch. The rest of us were banned one by one until only a small cabal of deranged fanatics were left in an increasingly hysterical echo chamber - my banning was for pointing out that a particular song was terrible after hearing about it for 3 years, and buying the album it came from before anyone else got it by virtue of geography. Shortly afterwards, the record company pulled the plug and dropped them due to their manager banning one of them. Quite amusing. Also, I was quite bored of the fawning over Sorcery! and attempts to ignore the fact the setting is literally arse.
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Post by The Count on Mar 3, 2021 0:55:51 GMT
In some ways, this thread could be an interesting study into fandom. I always find it amusing that online, whenever a negative opinion is expressed against the "fan favourites" that ranks are closed and an attempt is made to either prove the "hater" wrong, to discredit the "hater" or to do both.... The reaction towards my opinions on Sorcery! and DD in various threads, including this one, bears that theory out. First - a bit of a provocative post there if you don't mind me saying so, Count! Indeed, that was sort of the point. See my reply to sleepyscholar. It was a bit naughty of me. The overall reaction to the post was a good one though. I do appreciate all the discussion that has taken place, though it was getting a bit stale with the Sorcery! lovefest.
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Post by The Count on Mar 3, 2021 1:05:28 GMT
I think to take Analand as Anal-and rather than Ana-land, you'd also have to pronounce Vineland as Vinnel-and, or Maryland as Marill-and. The -land suffix is so strong as to affect pronunciation of the first part as well, hence Burntisland is not Burntiss-land. Analand can either be Anal-and or Ana-land and while there is the -land suffix, it isn't clear like it would be if it was An-na-land or Ann-al-land. See also: #Susanalbumparty - people see Sus-Anal-Bum-Party, not Susan-Album-Party Maryland is however very clearly Mary-land, Vineland is Vine-land. Burnt Island is two words.
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